Jazz Douchebags! Overdubs in jazz

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Two parter. First, the factual: Anyone know what the first jazz album to use overdubs (not just tape splices) was? It's gotta be before In A Silent Way (though who else here thought that was just Tony Williams before finding out otherwise?).

Second part, the opinionated: Best overdubbed jazz album? Will heavily-favored Bitches Brew take it? Or maybe some Soft Machine dark horse? Who knows?

― js (honestengine), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:20 (twenty years ago)

In spite of myself I really like:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008KKUQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:33 (twenty years ago)

From 1963, Bill Evans overdubbing three piano parts, improvising with himself one after the other with some great & surprising moments. A friend left this record in my stacks and I'm surprised at how often I return to it. Not giving it back. Great stuff.

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:36 (twenty years ago)

Lennie Tristano did this in 1956:

http://s46.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=212CP7LSVE0LC1GRREN9XFN24Y

I've never heard a quite clear explanation of exactly what he did, but I do believe he in some way manipulated the tape and it may have involved "overdubbing" himself over an altered rhythm section track. Anyway, it's great.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:44 (twenty years ago)

BTW I'm not sure if Silent Way or Bitches Brew were overdubbed, I think they were played live but then looped, edited and altered.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:45 (twenty years ago)

so, what exactly was Teo Macero doing?

― sleeve (sleeve), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:46 (twenty years ago)

My fave overdubbed jazz record right now is John Coltrane's Infinity.

― sleeve (sleeve), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:49 (twenty years ago)

There's some tape manipulation (splicing, editing) on Someday My Prince Will Come, from 1961. I'm pretty sure Miles says so in his book.

― Keith C (lync0), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 03:52 (twenty years ago)

Even from that Teo interview it's a little hard to tell, but one thing I don't think Miles did was to literally overdub, that is to have stuff layed down and then come in and say "I'm going to record another trumpet (drum, keyboard, etc.) part over that. I think if there are two drum parts it's just because there were two drummers on the session. But then someone on that thread does mention a part in Big Fun where Teo edited two different trumpet parts so that they're going at the same time, so I guess that's kind of like overdub.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 04:03 (twenty years ago)

One of the earliest and arguably the best jazz album with overdubs:

Charles Mingus' The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (1963)

I know that at least Charlie Mariano's alto sax is overdubbed on this.

― Marcus Barr (Marcus Barr), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 04:05 (twenty years ago)

It just occurred to me that there might be a lot of jazz-pop "crossover" albums that used overdubs pretty early on. In fact I'd imagine that any of those "with strings" albums MUST have used overdubs. That's got to be the answer as far as *earliest*.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 04:17 (twenty years ago)

Sidney Bechet!!!

that's the canonical answer, anyway ... I don't I've ever heard that stuff

― Shani Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 05:09 (twenty years ago)

don't think I've ever heard it, that is... but maybe I have! I can't remember. Anyway, yeah, he overdubbed himself playing all instruments on a session from 1941.

― Shani Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 05:11 (twenty years ago)

Oh man, I'd love to hear what that sounds like.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 05:12 (twenty years ago)

alright, now that that's answered, what's the best? obviously On The Corner is gonna be one of the faves. is there anything else that layered? is there anything else out there like this at all? even outside of the jazz spectrum?

― team jaxon (jaxon), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 06:23 (twenty years ago)

Monk's Brilliant Corners isn't exactly overdubbed, but the title track is a patchwork from various takes because the band never could get it exactly perfect (and this was a band featuring Sonny Rollins, Oscar Pettiford and Max Roach!). That's from 1956.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 13:06 (twenty years ago)

Bitch's Brew sounds like bad Grateful Dead.

― shookout (shookout), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 13:21 (twenty years ago)

That just proves you've heard neither Bitches Brew nor the Grateful Dead!

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 13:24 (twenty years ago)

Bitch's Brew sounds like bad Grateful Dead.

No. No, it really doesn't.

― Joe (Joe), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 13:25 (twenty years ago)

Herbie Hancock's "Hornets" uses overdubbing to good effect. And there is a small overdub in the end of "Psalm" on A Love Supreme, which it thinks works to great effect, because you wouldn't expect it on an otherwise organic record.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 13:27 (twenty years ago)

Not to mention the vocal and timpani (or whatever) overdubs on ALS.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 13:47 (twenty years ago)

Wow, that Macero interview is really great. And I didn't realize that Black Saint had overdubs.
What got me thinking about this was the Alice Coltrane Huntington Ashram Monastary stuff (along with AMT and PED), where you can hear her piano and harp work together at the same time. To have that level of compositional strength the way that she interplays with herself is really impressive to me...

― js (honestengine), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 15:50 (twenty years ago)

Jimmy Giuffre's Four Brothers is the first, is it not? that's the tape that goes into the Library of Congress, at least.

― Beta (abeta), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 16:17 (twenty years ago)

Mingus's basslines from the famous '53 Massey Hall concert were apparently re-recorded after the fact. And Les Paul certainly deserves a mention, whether he played "jazz" or not.

For "Living Space", John Coltrane doubled the melody lines on soprano, and that's kinda nice. And speaking of Trane: I always thought there was a slim chance that Archie Shepp added that final bit at the end of "Psalm" - certainly far from likely but not inconceivable.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 17:59 (twenty years ago)

In fact I'd imagine that any of those "with strings" albums MUST have used overdubs.
Stan Getz's "Focus" from 1963 was recorded just so. Strings first, then Getz comes in to respond to them---with sexy results.

― Sparkle Motion's Rising Force, Wednesday, 22 February 2006 19:29 (twenty years ago)

Surely Charlie Parker w/strings was live?

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 20:34 (twenty years ago)

Sonny Sharrock overdubs himself on the "Guitar" album, and there are overdubs on "Ask the Ages" too.

― Sean Braudis (Sean Braudis), Thursday, 23 February 2006 01:18 (twenty years ago)

[i]It just occurred to me that there might be a lot of jazz-pop "crossover" albums that used overdubs pretty early on. In fact I'd imagine that any of those "with strings" albums MUST have used overdubs. That's got to be the answer as far as *earliest*.

-- Abbadavid Berman (Hurtingchie...)[/i]

I know its been addressed, but just for the record--most of the earliest "with strings" were recorded live in concert halls as a way to try to cross over the intellectual jazz market with the hip classical market. many of the patrons were well-heeled beat wannabes, so producers like Granz would motor up the Philharmonic behind a trio or quartet. Not overdubbed.

My nomination for best is on hold until I do more research. I'm inclined to say [i]Science Fiction[/i], but I'm not sure that's a dub.

― J Arthur Rank (Quin Tillian), Thursday, 23 February 2006 15:37 (twenty years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.