Five Tool Musicians

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In baseball people often talk about "Five tool players" -- that is, the complete player....they can hit for power, hit for average, field well, great arm, fast runner. Mickey Mantle. Joe Dimaggio. Players like that.

What are the musical equivalent? I'm thinking they can sing well, play an instrument well (as in, lead guitarist), is a songwriter, can dance, and probably has a "look" (i.e., isn't ugly).

I'll start with two:

Prince.
Bruce Springsteen. (I know Miami Steve and Nils play lead in the band, but Bruce has been known to solo occasionally, and he isn't a slouch)

Also, try and keep the "tool" jokes to a minumum...

― Ben Crazee (Ben Crazee), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 10:18 (nineteen years ago)

Jan Hammer

― p@reene (Pareene), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 11:03 (nineteen years ago)

sorry.

― p@reene (Pareene), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 11:03 (nineteen years ago)

Tenor Saw

― Half loaf, half pompadour (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 11:07 (nineteen years ago)

Fela

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 11:08 (nineteen years ago)

Tom Waits

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:00 (nineteen years ago)

DAve Grohl

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:00 (nineteen years ago)

Stevie Wonder to thread

― trees (treesessplode), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:22 (nineteen years ago)

Can dance?

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:27 (nineteen years ago)

Vincent Gallo

― hank (hank s), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:31 (nineteen years ago)

> I'm thinking they can sing well, play an instrument well (as in, lead guitarist), is a songwriter, can dance, and probably has a "look" (i.e., isn't ugly).

The last two have nothing whatsoever to do with ability as a musician. Well, maybe in the case of tappers who musically create with their dancing. This is not to be construed as a dismissal of dance as an art, I'm simply distinguishing dancing (which can be accomplished without music, after all) from the creation of music.

The looks thing is just idiotic, though.

Also, differentiating singing from playing a musical instrument (ie: tool-assisted musical creation) is an artificial difference as far as I'm concerned. Try telling an opera singer sometime that they're not 'really' a musician because they don't play an instrument. If you don't mind a face full of phlegm, that is.

Still, it's an interesting question - what 'dimensions' may be ascribed to musical talent? Let's see if I can get to five playing by my rules.

1. Dexterity/'chops'
2. Tone
3. Improvisational creativity
4. Compositional creativity (maybe a cheat, if improvisation is considered spontaneous composition.)
5. Okay, I'm stuck

x-post with Josh

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:36 (nineteen years ago)

Can dance?
-- Josh in Chicago (Vitesse9...), June 21st, 2006

better than Bruce Springsteen...

― hank (hank s), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

Kid Rock

― hank (hank s), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

Todd Rundgren
Emitt Rhodes
Paul McCartney

― The Aff Its Heid Show (Dada), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:41 (nineteen years ago)

"can dance, and probably has a "look""

replace these two with "has stage presence" and "can lead a band" and I'm in.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:46 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, let me replace 'idiotic' which is unneccesarily insulting with 'silly' in my previous post. And steal Colin's 'ability to lead a band' for point five.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:51 (nineteen years ago)

SHAKIRA

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:54 (nineteen years ago)

Not sure how I feel about stage presence, especially in an era of recorded sound. Maybe 'audible charisma' or something vague and wierd like that. But I'm thinking that might just be another name for tone.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:56 (nineteen years ago)

James Brown / Caetano Veloso / Gilberto Gil / Jorge Ben

(and dancing is probably as important as "hitting for average")

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:57 (nineteen years ago)

James Brown couldn't play an instrument "well"

― The Aff Its Heid Show (Dada), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 12:58 (nineteen years ago)

> (and dancing is probably as important as "hitting for average")

Can you explain this for the baseball illiterate, please?

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 13:01 (nineteen years ago)

All right, maybe I was just thinking of an all-out performer like Prince with the dance bit. Replace with charisma if it makes you so upset.

In baseball a traditional way to gauge how good hitters are is to average how many hit they have in relation to how many at-bats they have. A good average is .300 and above (ie, they get a hit 30% of the time.....but with walks and such it's kind of more complicated than that....)

Oh, I forgot Buddy Holly.

― Ben Crazee (Ben Crazee), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

2. Tone
3. Improvisational creativity
4. Compositional creativity

I like my guidelines better.

― Ben Crazee (Ben Crazee), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

Frank Black.

― steal compass, drive north, disappear (tissp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

Bonnie Raitt and Dolly Parton. The dancing thing, not so much, but all the other tools are there.

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

> In baseball a traditional way to gauge how good hitters are...

Okay, fine. What I was trying to get at was whether Haikunym thinks dance is relevant to the discussion or not. I'm still not sure about this, but thanks for spelling out what Hitting for Average is.

> I like my guidelines better.

Of course you do, but I've explained why I think distinguishing vocal talent from instrumental talent isn't a good idea, and why I think dance doesn't really fit in here. Anyway, we seem to agree about composition being important, although you call it songwriting. As I said, improvising is possibly just part and parcel of that, so it can go out the window if a strong case is made that it's redundant. As for tone, please don't think I'm just talking about how close a player can come to a particular 'ideal' sound for a given instrument. Tone here is just a shorthand for creating a distinctive voice (either literal or metaphorical) in the music. Tom Waits scores as high on tone for me as Ella Fitzgerald does. So does Thelonious Monk, not only for his wierd piano approach, but for the way a Monk melody doesn't sound like anybody else's, no matter where you hear it or who plays it. So 'tone' can exist in any other dimension of music I'm describing here.

Also, Monk was a fantastic dancer.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

To say James Brown couldn't play an instrument well is the worst kind of ignorant bullshit. Well, okay, it's not as bad as saying that England is looking like a world class football team, but it's close. JB could school on both organ and drums.

And what I meant to say above is that hitting for average is mightily overrated among casual fans, and that dancing is mightily underrated by music critics, so I think if we are including the former in our list of five tools then we had better include the latter as well.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:08 (nineteen years ago)

And Austin Swinburne OTM about Monk's dancing. Terpsichore was his mistress.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

Dancing = stolen bases.

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

Justin Chancellor
Maynard James Keenan
Danny Carey
Adam Jones
that other one that used to play bass before Justin Chancellor

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

To say James Brown couldn't play an instrument well is the worst kind of ignorant bullshit... JB could school on both organ and drums.

Come again?

― The Aff Its Heid Show (Dada), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

Adrian Belew -- guitars, drums, singing, songwriting, producing. He's got a "look," too, though it's a pretty ugly one.

― Offisa Pump (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

Simpler for Dada: James Brown was a very good organ player, as he demonstrated many times on instrumental tracks. He was also a very talented drummer, although this is not generally reflected in recordings.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

He was an OK organ player, I wouldn't say he was a great organ player by any means, never heard him play drums

― The Aff Its Heid Show (Dada), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

I would say he was a great organ player by many means. You should hear him play drums.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:22 (nineteen years ago)

To reiterate - I think dance is great. I love lots of great musicians who are great dancers. I even say that if the dancing deliberately makes noise - be it handclapping, hambone, tap, castanets, finger cymbals, bells on her toes whatever - it is the same thing as playing an instrument. I watched "Summer Stock" last night and about soiled myself when Gene Kelly was working the squeaky floorboard and newspaper. I don't think I underrate dancing at all.

But to say that a musician who doesn't dance as part of their performance isn't as good as one who is just strikes me as ridiculous. A lot of people play instruments that keep them fixed to a spot. A lot of great singers are paralyzed ffs.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:23 (nineteen years ago)

PJ Harvey

― mox twelve (Mox twleve), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:25 (nineteen years ago)

I might be able to accept JB as an organ player but he was never much of a looker was he!

― The Aff Its Heid Show (Dada), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

John Fogerty. I don't think he can dance.
He can play center field, though!

― Tripmaker (SDWitzm), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

No he can't, they were keeping him on the bench for a fucking reason.

― Eppy (Eppy), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:32 (nineteen years ago)

If you think James Brown hasn't been laid about 1,000,000 times more than any of us then you are as daft as a daft person. One does not have to be classically handsome to be a sexy bastard, which he was from 1955 until about 1974 maybe. That's a pretty good run I'd say.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:37 (nineteen years ago)

I wish somebody realized how funny I was up there.

― "tool" musicians!?!?! (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:38 (nineteen years ago)

Nicka I think we realized EXACTLY how funny you were up there

BY THE WAY WELCOME BACK DOOD

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 14:41 (nineteen years ago)

The best way to judge hitters is OPS........on-base percentage plus slugging. But anyway....

I like my musicians to dance, is that so wrong?

Some more (replacing dancing with charisma):

Billy Corgan? Hank Williams? Alison Krauss (does she write songs too?)?

― Ben Crazee (Ben Crazee), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:20 (nineteen years ago)

I can see you're not even attempting to address my points re: dancing. So, I win.

And no, for the sixth time, there's nothing wrong with liking musicians who dance.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:26 (nineteen years ago)

Beck

― Christopher Costello (CGC), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

Robert Wyatt................... OK, maybe not for the dancing

― The Aff Its Heid Show (Dada), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:40 (nineteen years ago)

"The best way to judge hitters is OPS........on-base percentage plus slugging. But anyway...."

take yer Moneyball to Dissensus!

"No he can't, they were keeping him on the bench for a fucking reason."

but he was "ready to play", and we all know that 90% of success is *preparation*...

― hank (hank s), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

can see you're not even attempting to address my points re: dancing. So, I win.

Congratulations.

The point of the initial question was to think of musicians who had the whole package -- good at everything. That's it.

― Ben Crazee (Ben Crazee), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:46 (nineteen years ago)

Ricky Lee Jones = Scott Hatteberg

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:50 (nineteen years ago)

Dancing, for the record, is a musical activity, and requires some semblance of musical intuition.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:51 (nineteen years ago)

Ben - I sincerely apologize for asking you to explore and explain your idea of what makes a musician good.

nick - Most of the time, yes. Do you really mean to say that dancing is impossible without music? Or are you taking the position that by dancing one creates music, regardless of whether sound results from the dance? Is music something more than sound then?

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

Bjork = Jeremy Brown

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 15:57 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

Merle Haggard for country...

And James Brown is no technical whiz, but he kicks serious ass on the organ. Those little solos on the early '70s stuff embody funk more than just about anything else on Earth

― novamax (novamax), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 16:04 (nineteen years ago)

this thread is poorer for not having mentioned luke sutherland yet.

― Adolescence Mokushiroku! (gendo ikari), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:46 (nineteen years ago)

It might help if more people knew about him other than you and me.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

i thought he was semi-reknowned in the uk? or maybe i just want him to be.

― Adolescence Mokushiroku! (gendo ikari), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

"To say James Brown couldn't play an instrument well is the worst kind of ignorant bullshit"

I'll be sure and pass on to Fred Wesley that you think his estimation of JB's musical skill is "ignorant bullshit".

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

(and he's not the only prominent JB sideman to actively dismiss JB's instrumental ability - see also Clyde Stubblefield, etc.)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:57 (nineteen years ago)

and I'll admit that I find JB's organ solos on stuff like "Dirty Harri" and "Make it Funky" fun and funky, but examples of virtuoso musical ability they are not.

James Brown is like the Stan Lee of funk music.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

going by 100% CHAMPS' criteria, vini reilly makes a convincing case for being a 5-tool musician. tone, chops, compositional creativity, improvisational skillz, and more! and i LIKE his voice. AND i think he was pretty good looking before he had himself mummified.

― Adolescence Mokushiroku! (gendo ikari), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 22:01 (nineteen years ago)

Stevie does his awesome head-shaking, body-moving thing while he's on the keys. That shit is dancin, for sure.

― trees (treesessplode), Thursday, 22 June 2006 14:39 (nineteen years ago)

Shakey Mo, it does not really matter a damn to me what Fred Wesley or Clyde Stubblefield think or thought about James Brown's ability to play the organ. I know what I like. They are both great musicians though. Say hi the next time you three all hang out!

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 22 June 2006 14:48 (nineteen years ago)

And tell Fred Wesley to quit stealing my sandwiches!

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Thursday, 22 June 2006 15:05 (nineteen years ago)

Greg Cartwright

― Will (will), Thursday, 22 June 2006 16:10 (nineteen years ago)

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