What Music did Modernist Writers/Thinkers/Visual Artists listen to in the teens, twenties?

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Hey there.

Short version of this question:

1. What kind of music did the progressive, challenging artists and thinkers of the teens and twenties listen to? -- People like woolf, joyce, hemingway, duchamp, the dadaists, the surrealists, etc.
I'm guessing stuff like cole porter, kurt weill, stravinsky, schoenberg? Anyone have direct evidence of musical faves of people like this?


2. Context of question, for anyone who gives a shit (you can totally skip all this as it's long and boring):

I was thinking today about people's responses to the new dylan album in a lot of the blogs I read (a lot of "fuck this mom and pop rock shit" type slags). How it follows the natural cycle of kids rejecting the music of their parents, no matter how relatable the new stuff might be to them if they were able to get past the generational chasm and really let the issues being addressed sink in.
After all, the backdrop of today's 20-somethings is similar to that of the mid/late 60s 20-somethings, in terms of anxiety about the future, mistrust of governmental policy domestically and abroad, etc-- and few people spoke more directly to those feelings than dylan at the time. Granted his new Dylan records don't give the listener quite a direct channel into these themes as in the past with a song like, say, "Masters of War" (either because dylan's lyrics aren't as protest-direct anymore, or because his withered vocal instrument doesn't allow him to project his lyrics with the same impact). But still, the lyrics of a lot of these new Dylan songs are *very* much a product of what's happening right now, and not "irrelevant" and "anachronistic" as I've seen posted. Though the musical framing might be of another era, the lyrics are often desperate, violent, apocalyptic and nasty in places -- even more so when you consider the battered mutter with which they're delivered.
But it doesn't matter ultimately. The sound and texture of new dylan records isn't modern, have absolutely nothing to do with the tastes of the day, and therefore any lyrical relevance the music has is easy to ignore for many. I can even see "freak-folk" devotees -- people whose idols, devendra newsom et al., wouldn't even exist if it weren't for dylan & the countless who've been influenced by him -- shrugging aside "Modern Times" with its too-clean production & breeze. Where's the gira-produced lo-fi crust? Where's the cocorosie ish trip-hop flirtation? It's just a vaudevillish blues-band sound, and texture and presentation alone are enough to turn most people off to what really matters with an artist like dylan: the lyrics.
So just as Dylanites in 1969 scoffed at their dads for digging sinatra and tony bennett, kids into bright eyes roll eyes at mom for bringing up dylan when she starts trying to bridge the gap and talk about hard rain's a-fallin.
But that's fucking crazy isn't it? I mean, don't kids of today have tons more to relate to in a figure like dylan than dylan-heads of the 60s had to relate to in a figure like sinatra? I mean sinatra was singing rodgers and hart and jerome kern (beautiful songs I love but which, let's face it, didn't often plumb the depths, or if they did, were delivered in a safe way that worked against depth-plumbing), so of course dylan fans weren't going to be able to relate. But bright eyes kids, shit, there's a whole lot for them to relate to in dylan, ochs, even seeger and guthrie if they're up for it.
But then I remember how fucking crazy sinatra was for kids growing up in the 40s (speaking in terms of what I've read about him ... I'm 28, my dad was barely born when sinatra was making people go nuts), how he caused *riots*.
Sinatra. Riots. This guy was basically the first teen idol.
Riots. Like elvis. Like even Dylan did in terms of the collective conscience of the youth of the 60s. Like Liszt setting pianos on fire. Like Paganini. Like stravinsky's rite of spring, and people tearing out chairs and going apeshit in paris upon first hearing it.
I'm not saying the kind of uproar sinatra caused in his day is equal to the conscience-revolution dylan helped bring about... but both impacted culture heavily, and both in their own way, no matter how impactful they seemed in their day, seem now fusty and irrelevant and... quaint.
It made me sort of feel for every parent from every generation who tries to connect with the future and say: "my generation went through shit too, and here are some artists who turned our world upside down, and opened new doors for us..." and have the succeeding generation be like: "umm, thanks, but that doesn't speak to me."
And of course it doesn't. Perhaps it shouldn't. Just like the person who feels like "Lost in Translation" (a movie I love) speaks directly to them probably isn't being spoken to by watching a talkie from the 20s. The emoting is totally different. the phrasing. the pace of dialogue. the music. It's all off. it's just another world -- it's alien in every sense of the world. not bad, just Other. Yes some art is universal & ageless -- but most, MUCH more than we want to admit, is distinctly borne of its time and distinctly remains entombed there.
I love dylan, elvis, sinatra, stravinsky, beethoven, and everyone else who ever shook up the shit of their day, but I also don't get angry anymore when people call them 'irrelevant' or mom/dad rock. They *need* to be irrelevant for new things to happen, they need to be shitted on and disregarded. If everyone went around loving everything that ever was revolutionary in the last 500 years then we'd never stop to look at our current condition, and how we can make contemporary music that speaks to people in a language they get.
Incidentally, modern times is decent but hardly warrants all the perfect-ten worshipful fellatio it's getting. Christ almighty, you bring up dylan and motherfuckers get relijun faster than an aztec village in the presence of smallpoxed rapist Spanish expeditionaries.

Anyway, if you read this far and forget what my original question was, I don't blame you. Go back up top to #1, and thanks.



vic isthmus (isthmus), Saturday, 16 September 2006 00:54 (nineteen years ago)

no matter how relatable the new stuff might be to them if they were able to get past the generational chasm and really let the issues being addressed sink in.

This is an album we are talking about, not a self-help manual.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 16 September 2006 00:57 (nineteen years ago)

I assume they listened to a lot of classical music, by pre-20th century composers-- remember that the phonograph was still relatively recent, so some famous pieces may have been coming out on record for the first time around then.

Also, Jazz was fairly popular with the modernists, especially the Europeans. Ellington was being compared to Stravinsky back in the 20s.

As for the atonal stuff, I can see the Dadaists or Surrealists following it. I don't think Hemingway dug it much though.

ramon fernandez (ramon fernandez), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:08 (nineteen years ago)

Surrealist movement was expressly against music though some members apparently had differing opinions.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

What about Satie then?

A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:15 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think Andre Breton held music in very high esteem. Not sure about the rank and file Surrealists (but it took a curiously authoritarian turn at times, under Breton's leadership). I think Antheil was associated in some way with the Dadaists, or maybe it was the Futurists, or maybe both. (Maybe he even was considered a Futurist, I forget.) Ezra Pound wrote a good deal about music, including reviews of live music, so you could take a look at that. (He was friends with Antheil, too, I think.) Of course, while Pound was an associate of Joyce's, he wasn't too sympathetic to Surrealism or Dadaism, and I don't think there's much reason to expect his views to overlap a lot with the views of the artists in those movements. Gertrude Stein apparently once said (apparently dismissively, since she hadn't read ILX), "Music is for adolescents."

x-post

Tim Ellison OTM.

Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:17 (nineteen years ago)

(I think I finally got rid of my not very read copy of Ezra Pound on Music within the last year.)

Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, also apparently Eluard, I think it was Eluard, or maybe Aragon, but one of those surrealist poet bigwigs, was quite take with Cuban music. There's something about this in the very interesting forward to a translation of a very famous book on Cuban music by Alejo Carpentier. Worth checking out for that intro. or forward or whatever.

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Cuba-Alejo-Carpentier/dp/0816632308/sr=1-6/qid=1158373328/ref=sr_1_6/102-7489610-9918559?ie=UTF8&s=books

Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:22 (nineteen years ago)

I think it was Desnos.

Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:24 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.analogue.org/network/manifestmusic.htm

Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:36 (nineteen years ago)

"If he had not become a writer, there is a very good chance that James Joyce would still have made a name for himself by pursuing a career as a vocal performer. In 1904 he even shared the stage with the great opera singer and recital artist, John McCormack; and later on in life, after he had established himself as an author, he tirelessly promoted the singing career of his fellow Irishman and tenor, John Sullivan."

ramon fernandez (ramon fernandez), Saturday, 16 September 2006 01:42 (nineteen years ago)

Dylan sucks for reasons unrelated to his age or any generational issues, a fact that Scott Walker has proved abundantly with The Drift.

Shoes say, yeah, no hands clap your good bra. (goodbra), Saturday, 16 September 2006 02:25 (nineteen years ago)

Gertrude Stein apparently once said (apparently dismissively, since she hadn't read ILX), "Music is for adolescents."

That's funny, because I always thought Gertrude Stein was for adolescents.

A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Saturday, 16 September 2006 03:10 (nineteen years ago)

Andre Breton was full of shit. He wasn't an artist, he was a talentless, humorless manifesto writer who didn't even get the movement he claimed to helm.

Their was some awesome music in Un Chien Andalou, L'Age Dor and all the pre-Un Chien Andalou Dali shorts I watched.

Period period period (Period period period), Saturday, 16 September 2006 04:27 (nineteen years ago)

who didn't even get the movement he claimed to helm

How so? Breton was a great poet.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 16 September 2006 04:31 (nineteen years ago)

Didn't Breton eventually exile everyone but himself from the Surrealists?

ramon fernandez (ramon fernandez), Saturday, 16 September 2006 04:36 (nineteen years ago)

mostly metallica, personally, but i don't know about the other guys

the art ensemble of chicago house (vahid), Saturday, 16 September 2006 04:44 (nineteen years ago)

Anyone who would get into a fist fight with Tristan Tzara essentially about how to get weird, didn't get it.

Period period period (Period period period), Saturday, 16 September 2006 05:38 (nineteen years ago)

Stupid question for period: weren't Chien Andalou and L'age D'or silent films with no particular corresponding music? I'm pretty sure I've seen different VHS versions of Chien Andalou with different music - the music was whatever the producers of the VHS copy felt like putting on.

Matt Olken (Moodles), Saturday, 16 September 2006 05:42 (nineteen years ago)

Not familiar with incident in question but you still fail to say what he supposedly "didn't get." (And if "essentially about how to get weird" is how you want to characterize Surrealism, perhaps it is you that doesn't get it, sir.)

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 16 September 2006 05:57 (nineteen years ago)

Here's some relevant quotes from Laqueur's Weimar. Many of them just on the atmosphere of the Avant-Garde in general and the attitudes towards music some people had.


"The musical crises was part of a larger cultural upheaval, but the problem of music were specific, rooted in the very nature of the medium. Attempts to explain it in political or psychoanalytical terms were not very illuminating. Typical of this kind of comment was young Wiesengrund-Adorno, writing on the "social situation of music" in 1932; he claimed that Stravinsky reflected upper-middle-class ideology much more accurately than Richard Strauss, that the petty-bourgeosis elements among the public rejected the esoteric Schoenberg and the melodious Hindesmith alike, that the absurd hit songs of the time contained sadistic elements and manifested anal regression."

(Richard Strauss, upon listening to young Hindesmith's Second Quartet in 1921), "Why do you write this atonal stuff? You have talent!"; whereupon Hindesmith replied, 'Herr Professor, you make your music and I'll make mine.' Three decades later Hindesmith found himself in a similar position, for meanwhile a new generation had grown up which thought his work antiquated."

Not unlike the situation we find ourselves in today with many of our "greatest artists," where their work is amazingly pivotal in the lives of youngsters in one generation and almost completely meaningless and irrelevant to the next. I've always noticed amazing turnaround in both avant-garde and general leftist culture when it comes to heroes and leaders. It always seems a new prince needs to be crowned and made an idol before the next generation overthrows him and topples his statue and legacy completely; only to build a new idol for the new guy the next day. This seems to be a reccuring thing spanning everything from actual political personnel to ideological crusades ("SAVE THE WHALES!") to pop stars and scenes.

We've discussed this before on other threads that it seems like you can't fully move on to the "next big thing" in pop music until you've managed to destroy the heroes of the past. I think it was a Public Enemy thread regarding what Elvis meant to Chuck D.

Cunga (Cunga), Saturday, 16 September 2006 07:41 (nineteen years ago)

You start beef with Breton you start beef with me, Mister. The only thing Dali got was paid.

L'Age d'Or was never a silent movie, the soundtrack is an essential part of the film. Check out the drumming in the closing scenes. Un Chien Andalou was re-released by Bunuel in 1960 with a soundtrack; it was basically the same music that was played alongside the original showings of the silent version. Mostly Wagner, I think.

Joyce was a total Popist. Which is yet another reason why he rule. Eliot, on the other hand, wrote the lyrics for Cats.

Why does my IQ changes? (noodle vague), Saturday, 16 September 2006 09:00 (nineteen years ago)

He dared disturb the universe.

Marmot (marmotwolof), Saturday, 16 September 2006 09:04 (nineteen years ago)

the music that i've always heard played alongside (or on the sdtk of) un chien andalou is a tango. l'age d'or is a sound film. dali didn't make films before un chien andalou. antheil wrote a score to ballet mecanique which was recently reconstructed. bréton wrote nadja which is a beautiful book. also the magnetic fields. cmon you guys.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 16 September 2006 09:20 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I forgot the tango on UCA. It's like the comic foil to the Wagner which wells up in the "romantic" scenes.

Why does my IQ changes? (noodle vague), Saturday, 16 September 2006 09:23 (nineteen years ago)

questions of taste are always complex and it's unwise to project our own sensibilities onto the past-- or at least we should struggle to avoid doing so. debussy was a hero to two successive (and often warring) generations of aesthetes, what we now think of as pre-modernist and modernist. there are different debussys. i think some of the artists mentioned would have liked proletarian musics like tango and musette in addition to art musics. jazz was very divisive and some otherwise very forward-thinking folks could not countenance it. many of the soviet avant-gardists hated it.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 16 September 2006 09:25 (nineteen years ago)

also just as it is today the avant-garde in one medium isn't necessarily up to date on what we would consider the avant-garde of another.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 16 September 2006 09:27 (nineteen years ago)

Guy Debord hated 60s rock music. He listened to Coltrane, though.

sibsi (sibsi), Saturday, 16 September 2006 10:09 (nineteen years ago)

Joyce, as a singer, obviously knew his vernacular Irish music backwards and forwards (e.g. Finnegans Wake). But he also loved opera and could debate for hours Wagner vs. whomever, etc.; he at one point claimed to have bested Wagner musically with his prose music in the 'Sirens' chapter of Ulysses. He was interested in Shoenberg, used to see Purcell performed, went to see some performances of the mechanical ballet, saw Strauss's opera version of Wilde's Salome--he was very much cognizant of modernist music, especially living on the continent.

I'm not sure about Eliot's personal musical tastes, but there is a lot of ragtime and jazz in his poetry (i.e., the Shakespeherian rag). He was certainly open to the classics, however; the Four Quartets, for example, hook up with his appreciate for the Beethoven A-minor quartet.

mrjosh (mrjosh), Saturday, 16 September 2006 21:16 (nineteen years ago)

(If you're really into this, there is a great anthology by Daniel Albright called Modernism and Music that talks a lot about the interrelationships between different modernist media.)

Also, re: Dylan: I don't think it's really true that today's 20-somethings have a lot in common with 60s 20-somethings. It's easy to forget how crazy the 60s really were, and how a lot of Dylan's value was as a focal point for that craziness. Today, for example, there aren't crowds of people trying to levitate the Pentagon--no sword swallowers and midgets, more or less. Whereas in the 60s it seemed as though a whole new chaotic world was being born and the old one was getting burned up; Timothy Leary was doing 'research' at Harvard, the FBI was assasinating the president of the Black Panther Party, and so on, and Dylan captured all that insanity in his lyrics. To me, that seems like a completely different country from the one we have today.

mrjosh (mrjosh), Saturday, 16 September 2006 21:22 (nineteen years ago)


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