Indie bands are killing indie films

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Partially inspired by this other thread about poor music placement in film. Every freakin' indie director has to blare their gentle tastes to the world these days. Heaven forbid they actually score their films. I call it the Belle & Sebastian syndrome. Last week it was "LIttle MIss Sunshine", this week it was "Half Nelson", a two-hour commercial (which I liked, actually) for Broken Social Scene's "You Forgot It In People (which I also like).

But first, the previews: I had to endure 2 1/2 uninterrupted minutes of Sufjan Stevens for some new British comedy, followed by 2 1/2 uninterrupted minutes of anonymous indie blandness cued to visuals for the upcoming "Science Of Sleep". Not to mention the atrocities of Zach Braff, Thumbsucker, and the lot. This music is taking all the edge, and originality, out of these films.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:29 (nineteen years ago)

I think you're onto something there, but it seems to me like it hardly matters if it's indie rock or not, it's more a matter of a general lack of judgment in soundtracking - this whole idea of filmmakers as music tastemakers is getting out of hand (and I'm sure the studios are pushing it too). Poor music placement can ruin any movie though, whether or not it involves hip bands du jour or an original score.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:37 (nineteen years ago)

i object to the idea that these films would be good otherwise

― jergins (jergins), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:38 (nineteen years ago)

Right. That could have been worded more carefully. I would never accuse Zach Braff of making an edgy, original film.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:40 (nineteen years ago)

it hardly matters if it's indie rock or not, it's more a matter of a general lack of judgment in soundtracking

Yes there's a serious lack of judgment, but my problem is specifically the proliferation of "safe" indie music that waters down the films and lends a comfortable sweater vibe to movies about crack-addicted junior high school teachers.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:44 (nineteen years ago)

i object to the idea that these films would be good otherwise

hahaha

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:45 (nineteen years ago)

So basically lite indie rock is to indie film what Motown and Stax gold singles were to feel-good comedies in the 80s/90s.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:46 (nineteen years ago)

Well, what is it you dislike: using pop songs in films in place of a real score or the use of "indie" music for the songs specifically?

I think with there's always a fine line between using a pop song effectively in a movie or turning it into a situation where you're self-consciously trying to show how hip you are to what "the kids" listen to or trying to "spread the gospel" about some little band or song that you know, and by proxy are showing to everyone else for the first time, like it's pop music Show and Tell time for your music library.

― Cunga (Cunga), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:48 (nineteen years ago)

This rather overestimated film is really to blame:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/46/GraduateSpider.jpg/250px-GraduateSpider.jpg

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:51 (nineteen years ago)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/46/GraduateSpider.jpg/250px-GraduateSpider.jpg

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:51 (nineteen years ago)

There does seem to be almost a formula for it. Nothing goes better with a twenty-something protagonist searching his navel and exploring existentialist themes than twee or soft-indie-rock! One of these days one of the more creative producers will instruct the editors to just leave important scenes without any audio and they'll just randomly assign a Sarah Records' song to the scene. It'll be like Mad Libs! For example:

"Zach Braff" is "On a trip" with "His best friend's girlfriend" and "Zach Braff" is "unsure" about "Their relationship."
*pulls magic lever*
Your scene will be scored by Another Sunny Day: "I'm In Love With A Girl Who Doesn't Know I Exist"

"Joshua Jackson" is "Leaving home" with "His wife" and "Joshua Jackson" is "scared" about "Life in general"
*pulls magic lever*
Your scene will be scored by The Field Mice: "Emma's House"

Ta-da! C'mon, Hollywood! Make it easy on yourselves.

― Cunga (Cunga), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:04 (nineteen years ago)

No problem if it's used effectively in the scene, which seems to be rare here. Everything in film should be working towards the aim of the film. Nothing should really stick out or call attention to itself. No bigshot actor, no egotistical cinematographer, no Sufjan. Currently, there's a glut of indie films laden with Pitchfork-happy songs that are waving and hollering at the audience, clamoring for attention. So yeah, my specific problem is that nice & cuddly has taken over cinema.

The trend is helping to create a marketable box which studios, film makers, and financiers want to fit their films into. (xpost)

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:15 (nineteen years ago)

I find much more interesting when a film uses the sort of music you wouldn't expect it to, yet also manages to make a point with it, like with all the gangsta rap tunes in Office Space. An indie tune in the middle of a hip hop film might actually be cool.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:21 (nineteen years ago)

HI DERE

http://www.creativescreenwriting.com/csdaily/csdart/images/2004-08-August/Good%20Will%20Hunting%20-%20He%20don

― Leopold Boom! (noodle vague), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:22 (nineteen years ago)

cb4 would have been better with velocity girl, true

― jergins (jergins), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:24 (nineteen years ago)

Everything I was about to say was probably said better in Cunga's last post.

I think I'm gonna option this story. My agent's in talks with Sub Pop about the rights to Band Of Horses:

http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2005-07-14/nc.finalmadlib.gif

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:25 (nineteen years ago)

Ah! My first time googling mad libs and I screw it up.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:33 (nineteen years ago)

... no credibility

― EARLY-90S MAN (Enrique), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:39 (nineteen years ago)

Been waiting for that.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:39 (nineteen years ago)

The worst part is that most of these movies seem to be taking songs just for their 'feel', so if you've heard the song before, know the lyrics, have already formed some idea in your head of what it 'means', you get these terribly off-putting moments where some dude is hitting a crack pipe to the sound of "Lovers' Spit" or something (nb I forget what was actually happening in this movie during that song)

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:04 (nineteen years ago)

movies in being sucky and formulaic shockah

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:07 (nineteen years ago)

newsflash also to music lovers: filmic use of classical & jazz is also predictable and schlocky, but only game recognizes game I guess

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:21 (nineteen years ago)

yeah but at least that music's good when it's not in movies

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:25 (nineteen years ago)

(real answer: at least to me, jazz music has always seemed much less narrative, so it seems pretty reasonable to pick a jazz song solely based on the mood it evokes. and I'm not really sure what you mean by classical music -- are we talking film-scoring, or pre-existing compositions? hey wait I've suddenly decided to deparenthesize this train of thought because it just hit me that obviously we would have to be talking about pre-existing compositions -- pre-existing recordings, in fact -- because indie film dudes DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY TO HIRE SOMEONE TO SCORE THEIR FILM AND THEN HIRE AN ORCHESTRA TO PLAY ON IT ETC ETC SO OF COURSE THEY PAY SOME DUDE THEY WENT TO COLLEGE WITH FIFTY BUCKS FOR A DEMO OF ONE OF HIS SONGS

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:30 (nineteen years ago)

only difference is, now the dudes they went to college with have myspaces and sub pop deals

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:34 (nineteen years ago)

most classical music used in films these days is preexisting recordings chosen for "vibe," just like indie stuff - the high days of scoring a film are past, though not entirely: Scorsese I think still likes to do that stuff, and Craig Armstrong routinely writes pretty passable scores. I'm mainly just saying that this thread seems to be a sort of grumbly "o noes, I went to the movies and had to hear an indie rock song" sorta grouse

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:06 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, it is all about how effectively the music is used, and in most of these cases it is not used even remotely effectively. Classical is also used abominably ('ooh, instant pomp'), but the thing that gets me is when a soundtrack is almost entirely modern - it's like they build scenes for a particular track, rather than the other way around. It's advertising, not filmmaking. I've never noticed jazz being used particularly badly, but I think something in me just goes 'a-ha, homage to the French New Wave' in that, yes, it is formulaic, but there tends to be a purpose to the trigger.

― emil.y (emil.y), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:14 (nineteen years ago)

"It's advertising, not filmmaking"

so true

― Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

I'm glad this isn't about indie bands scoring indie films, as with Yo La Tengo for Old Joy and Shortbus.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:01 (nineteen years ago)

indie films are killing indie bands

― Charlie Howard (the sphinx), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:02 (nineteen years ago)

I don't see what the problem is with this. If the music fits the film, it does its job, and I don't care if it was written by John Williams or Sufjan Stevens.

Of course Zach Braff will overuse indie music in his movies, but that's because his scripts are flimsy. It would be just as bad if he were relying on traditional movie music.

And Thumbsucker, by the way, had great music.

― Nathan P1p (hoyanathan), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:18 (nineteen years ago)

i think tallis is pretty otm... and that maybe indie music in films is just jarring to indie fans who've heard the songs before and have their own set of associations with them already?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:19 (nineteen years ago)

hearing 'elephant woman' at the end of 'hard candy' was a pleasant surprise. largely atrocious movie though

― Charlie Howard (the sphinx), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:19 (nineteen years ago)

i would like to see a version of excalibur where "carmina burana" is replaced by "ginger snaps"

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:27 (nineteen years ago)

i think tallis is pretty otm... and that maybe indie music in films is just jarring to indie fans who've heard the songs before and have their own set of associations with them already?

yep. I remember when I watched "Garden State" and the whole "The Shins will change your life.." bit. My first 2 thoughts were: "the shins had their chance about, oh, 3 years ago." I really enjoyed "Oh Inverted World" and felt odd that it was being product placed like a can of Pepsi. My reaction was admittedly impetuous, on sort of a junior-high "i've been wearing this band's shirt for 2 years" level.

― J. Grizzle (trainsmoke), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:33 (nineteen years ago)

http://z.about.com/d/worldfilm/1/7/5/S/5.jpg
"I write music for soundtracks now, that all I really wanted to do anyhow" - Bob Pollard

― BrianB (BrianB), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:36 (nineteen years ago)

I think the pairings are pretty on the mark, honestly. The movies you mention just scream indie rock soundtrack. You saw the trailer for Little Miss Sunshine - the people that listen to 'indie rock' (a huge 18-35 demographic chunk, I'd wager) are clearly the target audience. And by playing Sufjan Stevens or whatever in the background they signal that they are part of the 'in' crowd... marketing, man. It's not in any way unexpected. Not to say the movies aren't decent and entertaining, they are, but come on, this isn't high art we're talking about.

One great soundtrack was The Hours a few years back, say what you will about Philip Glass.

― vingt regards (vignt_regards), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

CALLED BULLSHIT ON THAT
http://www.dvdconfidential.com/uploaded_images/repo-man-754665.jpg
MANAGING A POP GROUP'S NO JOB FOR A MAN

― Dr. Alicia D. Titsovich (sexyDancer), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:47 (nineteen years ago)

"So basically lite indie rock is to indie film what Motown and Stax gold singles were to feel-good comedies in the 80s/90s."

oh man is this OTM. Its incredibly lazy in a very similar way.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:56 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, Half-Nelson would've been so much better with a nonstop trap-hop soundtrack.

― Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

thinking about this more I'm beginning to realize my favorite scores are often written/performed by the directors themselves (John Carpenter, Takeshi Kitano etc)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

I haven't seen "Storytelling" and the little clips between the songs on the soundtrack album make it sound like a load of crap. However, "Storytelling" is my favourite Belle and Sebastian album. BY FAR.

― everything (everything), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

ah Storytelling was fun

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:20 (nineteen years ago)

I was listening to Todd Phillips on Fresh Air last night, and Terry Gross asked him how much it cost to license classic tracks like Dust in the Wind and Mrs. Robinson. He said between $40,000 and $200,000. With those prices, I can sure see the financial reasons for using idie music.

― schwantz (schwantz), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

this really is all the Graduate's fault, whoever linked that upthread OTM.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, and the crazy thing is I still like that film.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

Well at least "the Science of Sleep" had some nice music, like this strange version of the Velvet Underground's "After Hours" or Dick Annegarn.

― Pom (pom), Thursday, 28 September 2006 19:40 (nineteen years ago)

Storytelling is one of the worst films ever and the soundtrack is by far the low point in Belle and Sebastian's career.

The flawed premise of the thread is, as others have already pointed out, that the music somehow ruins the films. Devotchka's score actually helps Little Miss Sunshine which is a shitty overrated film. Indie music in indie films had its big explosion in the 90's. Examples: J. Mascis scoring Gas Food Lodging or Thurston Moore doing Heavy. Both films are crap.

Blaming it on the Graduate is all too easy. It's just the most famous example of a period when Hollywood was aggressively courting youth culture. Why not blame it on You're a Big Boy Now instead since it precedes the Graduate by a year? For the current moment, I'd prefer blaming Wes Anderson (even if he doesn't use "indie" music).

― Jacobo Rock (jacobo rock), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:25 (nineteen years ago)

Moderator, please lock this thread. It has a flawed premise.

― everything (everything), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

No one has said Wes Anderson in this thread.

― Adam S S (Zephery), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:35 (nineteen years ago)

I think it is perfectly reasonable to grouse every time I have to hear an indie rock song.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:36 (nineteen years ago)

hmm I've never heard of "You're A Big Boy Now"...? (rushes over to IMDB). On previous threads on the topic the general consensus was that the Graduate was the first instance of a popular rock song being used to score a studio feature film. Hence the blame.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:36 (nineteen years ago)

given the continued drop in actual album sales, this is one of the ways bands can actually make some money.

alex in sf totally too right

― Wuffy the cat-rescuing dog (superultramarinated), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:36 (nineteen years ago)

You're a Big Boy Now uses the Lovin' Sponful as the soundtrack to a perfunctory coming of age film.. It's a forgettable pre-Godfather Francis Ford Coppola film but it sort of uses the same template as any youth oriented film using indie music does now (probably more so than The Graduate since it's more about using the music for cultural/generational validity than for emotional impact).

― Jacobo Rock (jacobo rock), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

"You're A Big Boy Now" is more of a cult classic, and never had the cultural impact that "The Graduate" did the following year. I'll bet the studios looked more at the success of "The Graduate" when approving the model.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

wes anderson uses more wierd 60s and 70s stuff than indie rock.

― M@tt He1geson: Real Name, No Gimmicks (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

haha well shit its a tough call as to whose more enjoyable to heap scorn on, Coppola or Nichols, but I guess Francis is more to blame then! thx for the dirt.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:51 (nineteen years ago)

Sure, Wes Anderson uses music from an earlier period (although i wouldn't say it's weird especially with how it fits the essential tweeness of his films), I was just saying that his films have become so overreliant on music to achieve any kind of mood. It's using music as a crutch. I think that it's in the same way as the original thread statement. It's a poor use of music. And he also uses music in a similar way as a means of showing how impeccable his taste is. Then again, I think each one of films is worse than the last. It's not like Bottle Rocket's use of Love overdetermined the mood.

― Jacobo Rock (jacobo rock), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

i shouldn't have said "wierd" actually. none of it's wierd. maybe using that dylan instrumental off of self-portrait was wierd just cuz everyone hates that album.

hell, bottlerocket was the first time in my life i'd ever heard love, so big ups to wes for using it!

― M@tt He1geson: Real Name, No Gimmicks (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:08 (nineteen years ago)

I don't have a problem with Wes Anderson and the music he uses in his films. It improves them. To evoke moods I prefer over-reliance on music rather than say, over-reliance on Nicolas Cage's face.

― everything (everything), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:11 (nineteen years ago)

Anderson's movies are generally pretty over-the-top so I actually don't mind the over-the-top musical moments in them (plus I generally like the music so that's a plus.) Thumbsucker and Garden State OTOH was awful just all the way around. Awful movie, awful music, awful use of music. Just awful.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:12 (nineteen years ago)

I kept Wes Anderson out of my original post because at least he throws in a broader spectrum of music as a crutch. He's seperate from this current crop of bland indie films.

Alex OTM on Thumbsucker and Garden State. Those were probably two of the films I was originally targeting the most. Indie film is supposed to represent something fresh and unique. Those two feel more like committee-driven product than than anything. It's the thought that Hollywood has taken over Independant cinema that scares me the most. And Sundance and Sufjan have become accomplices.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:21 (nineteen years ago)

For what it's worth, The Lovin' Spoonful also scored "What's New Tiger Lily?" in '66. And if songwriters count, Bacharach/David had done a couple of full scores before " The Graduate" was released ("What's New Pussycat?" and "Casino Royale").

The big deal with "The Graduate" was that it used pre-existing music. Paul Simon was supposed to write a full score but Nichols changed his mind during the editing. Supposedly the rejected songs became the core of Bookends.

― Orgy of Pragmatism (Charles McCain), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:32 (nineteen years ago)

But Hollywood took over independent film over a decade ago!

I think I can actually muster a defense of the music in Garden State. This surprises me since it's one of my most hated films in recent memory. But the use of the music in the film makes sense since it's actually the kind of inoffensive, Starbucks approved, middle-of-the-road indie music that the characters in the film would actually be listening to. So at least the use of music is organic.

With Wes Anderson, you don't get a sense that the characters in his films would be listening to the music in his films so it's more a product of the director's overriding sense of taste than one that should fit the characters. It's not that music has to fit in such a one-to-one way but often times I think the best use of music does.

― Jacobo Rock (jacobo rock), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

it's just a matter of time until some young director makes a post-gen-x romantic comedy in the singles/high fidelity vein and death cab for cutie or the shins or stars or the arcade fire or someone on sub pop covers "ain't no mountain high enough." and then we'll all complain about it like we didn't see it coming all along.

― Godfrzej Ljang (godfrzej), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

That's a good point, Orgy. It hadn't struck me but there is a big difference between music specifically commissioned for a film and one that uses already recorded music.

― Jacobo Rock (jacobo rock), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:40 (nineteen years ago)

I enjoyed Thumbsucker, and, although I am certainly no fan of indie music, thought the music was particularly well chosen. After all, the protagonist was a very soft, shy, indie kind of kid.

― rattusnorvegicus (ratty!!), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:43 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, original post = funny, because I had the exact same experience as Cosmo when I went to see Half Nelson. Science of Sleep trailer came on and I turned to my girlfriend and said "Death Cab be gettin' rich from the movies." Then the Driving Lessons trailer came on and I turned to my girlfriend and said "Sufjan be gettin' rich from the movies." (Also "What is this, Harold and Maude Part 2?") Then when the first Broken Social Scene song came on during Half Nelson, I leaned over and said, well, you know.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

But Hollywood took over independent film over a decade ago!

So true. I'm just bitcing about this genre of empty-headed navel-gazing Sufjan-tracking I'm-weird-but-it's-okay films that seem to be taking up coveted screens around town. I'm impatient for this horrible cycle to end, at least until it starts up again in 7-10 years.

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

I think it is perfectly reasonable to grouse every time I have to hear an indie rock song.

Ah good friend.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:56 (nineteen years ago)

I just wish there was more of the Jim Jarmusch/Wong Kar Wai approach where one song gets played 50,000 times. Directors should be allowed one song per film, and how they use it is up to them.

― dlp9001 (dlp9001), Friday, 29 September 2006 00:13 (nineteen years ago)

the graduate?!?

blackboard jungle (1955) used rock music

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 29 September 2006 02:29 (nineteen years ago)

the first film where i found the soundtrack felt jarring or tacked-on was royal tenenbaums. i don't like the way music is used in that film.

― electric sound of jim [and why not] (electricsound), Friday, 29 September 2006 02:35 (nineteen years ago)

indie film hacks are killing indie film
they're just using boring music to sharpen the icepick

― davelus (davelus), Friday, 29 September 2006 04:46 (nineteen years ago)

This man is our only hope:

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2792/borat6te.jpg

― cosmo vitelli (cosmo vitelli), Friday, 29 September 2006 04:57 (nineteen years ago)

dlp9001 otm

― occasional mongrel (kit brash), Friday, 29 September 2006 09:45 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know if it's heartening or worrysome that no one's mentioned Magnolia yet.

― Eppy (Eppy), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

Morbs, I snuck out to see Old Joy last night and, much to my surprise, didn't find the Yo La Tengo too distracting.

― Ruud Comes to Haarvest (Ken L), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:31 (nineteen years ago)

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