Woman are doing it for themselves

Also, the thing I love about the lyrics to PJ Harvey - Rub 'Til It Bleeds is that she pretty much reduces the male to a smouldering pile of shit but still remains 100% woman

Also the Donnas sort of but they don't always succeed at being in control

Also Juliana Hatfield "Houseboy" sort of

Also the Gits r0x0r 4everrr RIP MIA ZAPATA "here's to your fuck"

I think that when women do the opposite angle - total abjection - they're carving out genuinely unmapped, unspoken, and almost frightening territory: "He isn't true/He beats me too/What can I do?/Oh my man I love him so ..." (Bessie Smith), or "I'd change my ways for him/I'd change all of them/If only I could be/The girl he needs" (Lydia ...), or "I was born a woman/Born to be hurt/Born to be lied to, cheated on, stepped on, treated like dirt" (Sandy Posey) or "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow", etc. Just by confessing these hideous truths these women are spitting in the face of society way more than someone who claims to be an "Independent Women" or a "Survivor." I mean, ha ha ha. Those very women who sing those words have to parade around like sluts just to make a buck. And even as celebrities like Drew Barrymore are fakely embracing Destiny's Childs 'independent stance,' they must feel some unease. In my opinion, a stab at the 'truth' goes further, is funnier, and has more effect than pretending to be something other than what you are.

But boasting is always pretty funny.

On the other hand, I find "Nasty Girl" funnier, wilder and more honest than "Independent Woman." I'm surprised it didn't end D.C.'s career though - they certainly deserved it after that!

Fuck I think I sound like some columnist for the Guardian who thinks they have THE key post-ironic view on post-feminism. Nevertheless, I genuinely do like the purity of those rare female songs of complete, utter abjection and subservience. It can't be wrong to express these all too human realities in music - even if they happened to be completely false exaggerations - after all, music is a distillation, not a mirror.

I could go even further, and say that often when women adopt a tough stance, it seems one step further in their subservience. For example, when the Trashwomen (who I really really like - in fact, adore) pose in boy-fantasy outfits, then claim lyrically that they want to go round screwing boys over, it seems as if they're saying, 'hey, I'm available, just like you always wanted, yeah I'm that slut ... yes I have indeed walked right into your trap. In fact, I'd do anything to please you, even pretend to be selfish and care about nothing but sex.' And to claim that they're being ironic ... just don't even bother.

I feel really bad for dissing the confident woman thing. I mean I can't even really tell, perhaps it is an important factor in liberating women from a position of subservience. But for example, when Toni Morrison (?) reads that 'Positively Absolutely Woman' poem, I feel - kind of unmoved. On the other hand, 'You Don't Own Me' really moves me and makes me feel liberated ... perhaps because it's defensive, rather than offensive. But you know, listening to 'Search and Destroy' or 'Rock and Roll (Made me a man)' or even 'I'm a Man', all those things make me feel boastful about myself too, because that's the way imagination works ...

I guess it's just that sometimes when women are talking about being tough or confident, it seems more like a lesson one must dutifully follow than a liberation. It's like when the preacher stands at the front of the church and talks about true love and you stare at the ceiling. It's potentially the most moving idea in the world, but he's stepping all over it by using it without sincerity, to manipulate people. On the other hand, there are honest preachers.

i disagree with maryann about the kind of "my man treats me like shit but i love him anyway" lyrics. they are not empowering. when the cardigans "lovefool" was released, all i remember for ages was hearing a bunch of nitwits running around going - "its just like my life!" - as if the song wasn't a pisstake, as if it was an excuse to behave like a brainless ninny.ick!

what i really like are lyrics which are hopeful and constructive. theres some stuff on "all hands on the bad one" by sleater-kinney that fits here. on "milkshake n honey" where they parody the whole male- sexuality-in-rock ethos - they aren't copying it they are sending it up for sure, "i've always been a guy with a sweet tooth and that girl was just like a king-sized candy bar". and i also love the way "#1 Must Have" ends with the line, directed at women "now is the time to invent" - its constructive and hopeful. sorry for talking so much about sleater-kinney. i do admit that i have a somewhat unhealthy fixation with that band.

i'm not overly huge on the anti-male thing, but what struck me about the riot grrrls and pj harvey was their assertion that it's okay to be angry, screw whether or not its ladylike. to me it was affirming the humanity of women, in a world where we are expected to be quiet and polite and demure and well i guess angelic. this assertion may strike some people as an old- fashioned sentiment, but in reality there are many men, including ones who pay lipservice to feminism, who express a dislike of loud abrasive women. thats why i found riot grrls and pj harvey so radical.

how do you know that they aren't authentically selfish? why do you assume that they dress "slutty" (and i use the word in inverted commas because i think you have used it in an offensive and judgmental manner) to impress boys? i've always thought they were saying "hey we might not look like supermodels, but up yours with your ideals of feminine beauty - we're here to expand the ideals" and thats something i find powerful, as a girl who hovers between a size 12 and 14. i think they're speaking to women with that, not to men. thats something i have often tried to express myself - i'm not skinny and i'm not ashamed of my body so i sometimes wear short skirts and hope that girls realise they don't have to be ashamed of their bodies if they aren't skinny either.

its just this kind of thing often doesn't go far enough, and ends up coming across as self-piteous tripe. it isn't all that useful to whinge on about how things sux if you aren't going to look for solutions to the problem. its reeks of, "this is the way it is, and ever shall be".

Which is not to say that you or Woolf are incorrect, but rather that the argument isn't watertight. Definitely agree though that it's a case of employing the issue rather than letting the issue employ you.