no more popists! it's called "soda"

i wonder who is the most rockist ILM-er. Def not Geir. I reckon it might be me. :-)

STOP!

http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/pope_350.jpg

[img][Removed Illegal Link]

= wack.

sigh, ILM remains a crack-free environment.

Your days of fat-fingering bbcode and illegal image link surprises are numbered!

i wonder who is the most rockist ILM-er. Def not Geir. I reckon it might be me. :-)

I seem to recall there is someone posting from NYC who is slightly into Killing Joke....

He likes hip hop, you shameless racist shit.

Why does disliking music genres make me a racist?

This is about MUSIC! If I had been a racist I had hated Lionel Richie or Stevie Wonder just as much as all other black acts. And maybe I would have liked Eminem and Beastie Boys. Well, I don't!

So stop calling me a racist, because that is just BULLSHIT!

And I hate Karlheinz Stockhausen just as much as I hate rap. For the EXACT SAME REASON!!!!!!!!! Does that make a racist too?

Results 1 - 10 of about 214 for "geir hongro" racist. (0.36 seconds)

Yes, hip-hop-fans love to call people who hate hip-hop racists. Which is bullshit unless the skin colour is the reason why they hate it.

Simmer down, Geir. Simmer down.

You just shut and and realize I have the right to argue against unmelodic music without being called a racist. Music is only what it sounds like and shouldn't be seen as anything else. Only the music itself and what it sounds like is relevant, all other stuff is irrelevant.

I didn't call you a racist and never have! Don't get mad at me.

I don't understand JW's response -- surely hip-hop attitudes are often very very rockist? Auteurship, authenticity, realness, roots etc etc? Do there even exist rappers openly doing other people's lyrics, for instance? Teen idol verbatim cover versions of hip-hop classics?

(xpost rev that was to jw as well, i think)

Do there even exist rappers openly doing other people's lyrics, for instance?

Isn't contemporary R&B often referenced as hip-hop as well? There are a lot of outside songwriters and producers there.

Results 1 - 10 of about 303,000 for "the reverend" racist

:p kidding

And btw they is¨a hip-hop-critique which may be seen as racist, but those people are the ones who concentrate on the lyrical content rather than the music. Critizicing hip-hop for its musical content (i.e. lack of melodies) has nothing to do with racism.

And btw. obviously, critizing hip-hop lyrics for a sexist attitude cannot be seen as racist either.

there are outside songwriters & producers in hip-hop, but as far as rhymes go, the idea is generally that you write your own.

(p.s. Geir don't pay attention to JW's trolling)

x-post I think I know. Beyonce doesn't write her own rhymes though.

And btw. obviously, critizing hip-hop lyrics for a sexist attitude cannot be seen as racist either.

Ethan to thread!

Results 1 - 10 of about 303,000 for "the reverend" racist

Oh, hell yeah!

According to some people, if you like Lenny Kravitz, Kele Okereke and Jimi Hendrix, while you dislike Eminem and Justin Timberlake, then you are a racist against black people.

Fuzzy logic if you ask me, but.....

ooh about 7 x xpost

Isn't contemporary R&B often referenced as hip-hop as well? There are a lot of outside songwriters and producers there.

Interesting question actually -- eg most R&B female singers I've never heard mentioned as being "hip-hop" I think. Is the "outside writers" thing part of what gives some artists/songs the right to be "hip-hop" and others not? (This is not a question to you, Geir, I'd like to hear from people more "in" "touch" with the "scene" than you or I).

Well Beyonce isn't really "rapping" though!

She does on a few songs! (Or at least one that I'm thinking of.)

But isn't DJ Shadow seen as hip-hop? No rapping there. Same about Grandmaster Flash's early mix records.

Yeah, and I wouldn't necessarily say rapping makes a record hiphop.

But I think the "rockist" attitudes in hip-hop that anatol describes primarily pertain to the hip-hop traditions that followed specifically from the early days of rap, etc., not the hip-hop traditions that have been appropriated from R&B:

surely hip-hop attitudes are often very very rockist? Auteurship, authenticity, realness, roots etc etc? Do there even exist rappers openly doing other people's lyrics, for instance? Teen idol verbatim cover versions of hip-hop classics?

R&B's reliance on outside producers & songwriters predates hip-hop. And the producer/rapper from the beginning were separate entities in hip-hop -- the DJ vs. the MC.

(nb I am probably about the same level as Geir in terms of hip-hop knowledge so don't mind me too much)

DJ shadow is a producer.

^ in geir terms

Basically what I'm saying is Beyonce is more the traditional R&B pattern where the vocalist can sing other people's lyrics and music without being inauthentic, whereas in rap one writes his/her own lyrics. The producer element is separate, so that in both R&B and hip-hop, the performer's not writing his/her own beats isn't an authenticity faux pas.

Ghostwriting's pretty common, though frowned upon (and instances of someone actually fessing up to using ghostwritten rhymes are very rare indeed.)

R&B's reliance on outside producers & songwriters predates hip-hop.

Hm yes, I guess I'm just somehow unable to connect eg "R&B (1960s)" to "R&B (2000s)" aesthetically or socially in any way... or is it as general as both meaning "the most prominent Black American urban genre at any one time" or something.

But isn't DJ Shadow seen as hip-hop? No rapping there.

Still rockist-friendly auteurship though?

xpost comments:
(nb I am probably about the same level as Geir in terms of hip-hop knowledge so don't mind me too much)

Haha yeah me too

Ghostwriting's pretty common, though frowned upon

Yeah, that's why I asked about people openly using other's lyrics... :)

Of course there's direct lineage from "R&B (1960s)" to "R&B (2000s)", one with many zigs and zags to be sure, but the dots are certainly all there to be connected.

Other than disco (which was largely a white product in spite of black singers and influences) R&B in the 70s and 80s was considerably more about singer/songwriters and artistic control though.

Jesus fuck, Geir. I don't even know where to start picking that sentence apart. You give me too many options.

dj shadow is a stooge!

Of course there's direct lineage from "R&B (1960s)" to "R&B (2000s)", one with many zigs and zags to be sure, but the dots are certainly all there to be connected.

Oh I'm sure they are! I suppose it's like if I came from a sheltered home where I was only allowed to listen to classical music and gamelan, and was played Buddy Holly, Yes and Art Brut, being told that "this is "rock"", I'd be just as confused.

Jesus fuck, Geir. I don't even know where to start picking that sentence apart.

He's probably thinking of Giorgio Moroder and Frank Farian.

Giorgio Moroder, Frank Farian, Barry Gibb, Jacques Morali

(and you may possibly add Benny Andersson and Björn Ulväus too)

i live in the antarticas

Basically what I'm saying is Beyonce is more the traditional R&B pattern where the vocalist can sing other people's lyrics and music without being inauthentic, whereas in rap one writes his/her own lyrics. The producer element is separate, so that in both R&B and hip-hop, the performer's not writing his/her own beats isn't an authenticity faux pas.

-- Curt1s Stephens, Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:49 AM (14 hours ago)

Unlike the majority of hip-hop tracks even to this day, Dr. Dre's tracks have featured a large amount of live instrumentation, and he has often been praised for his musical ability. But since his earliest work in rap, Dr. Dre has produced records with the help of outside musicians, leading to allegations that he does not actually produce a significant portion of the tracks that are credited to his name. To date, only 3 co-producers have shared production credits alongside Young officially- DJ Yella on N.W.A. albums, Mel-Man on Aftermath releases between the label's inception and until approximately 2002, and most recently, Mike Elizondo, a Los Angeles-based bassist.
However, over the years word of other collaborators has surfaced. During his tenure at Death Row Records, it was alleged that Dre's half brother Warren G and Tha Dogg Pound member Daz made many uncredited contributions to songs on his solo album The Chronic and Snoop Doggy Dogg's album Doggystyle (Daz received production credits on Snoop's similar-sounding, albeit less successful album Tha Doggfather after Young left Death Row Records).
It's known that Scott Storch, who has since gone on to become a successful producer in his own right, contributed to Dr. Dre's sophomore album 2001; Storch is credited as a songwriter on several songs and played keyboards on several tracks. In 2006, he told Rolling Stone[6] :
"At the time, I saw Dr. Dre desperately needed something," Storch says. "He needed a fuel injection, and Dre utilized me as the nitrous oxide. He threw me into the mix, and I sort of tapped on a new flavor with my whole piano sound and the strings and orchestration. So I'd be on the keyboards, and Mike [Elizondo] was on the bass guitar, and Dre was on the drum machine".
Current collaborator Mike Elizondo, when speaking about his work with Young, describes their recording process as a collaborative effort involving several musicians. In 2004 he claimed to Songwriter Universe Magazine that he had written the foundations of the hit Eminem song "The Real Slim Shady", stating, "I initially played a bass line on the song, and Dre, Tommy Coster Jr. and I built the track from there. Em [Eminem] then heard the track, and he wrote the rap to it" [7]. This account is essentially confirmed by Eminem in his book "Angry Blonde"- in it, he states that the tune for the song was composed by a studio bassist and keyboardist while Dr.Dre was out of the studio -though he adds that Dre programmed the song's beat after returning (Eminem- "Angry Blonde". 2000, Regan Books, New York NY).
Futhermore, in the September 2003 issue of The Source, a group of disgruntled former associates of Dre complained that they had not received their full due for work on the label. A producer named Neff-U claimed to have produced the songs "Say What you Say" and "My Dad's Gone Crazy" on The Eminem Show, the songs "If I Can't" and "Back Down" on 50 Cent's Get Rich or Die Tryin', and the beat featured on Dr. Dre's commercial for Coors Beer (See references for details -Source Magazine, September 2003).
It should be noted that although Young studies piano and musical theory, he is not necessarily an instrumentalist himself. As he joked to Time Magazine in 2001, "I bought a trumpet a couple of years ago, and everybody started hiding from me" [8]. In the same article, Time described a recording process in which Dr. Dre is operates more as a conductor than a musician himself-
Every Dre track begins the same way, with Dre behind a drum machine in a room full of trusted musicians. (They carry beepers. When he wants to work, they work.) He'll program a beat, then ask the musicians to play along; when Dre hears something he likes, he isolates the player and tells him how to refine the sound. "My greatest talent," Dre says, "is knowing exactly what I want to hear."[9] [10]
However, the fact that Young does not play instruments on his records may not necessarily diminish his contributions as a record producer. Some of the controversy may stem from a dispute over what the term "producer" means in music. In music, the role of producer is often simply given to the person who "creates the beat", be it through the use of a drum machine, keyboards, or even simply choosing samples and looping them. By this definition, allegations that Young was not the "real" producer of some tracks credited to him can have merit. However, the role of producer has generally been understood to mean controlling recording sessions, guiding performers, and supervising the recording, mixing and mastering processes. In this respect, Dr. Dre can be given the credit as the primary and most important producer, even in the face of these allegations.
In interviews, artists that have worked with Dr. Dre generally tend to credit him with bringing an overall artistic vision to projects, helping artists to give their best performances. In a 2006 interview with Allhiphop.com, Snoop Dogg talked about re-writing his lyrics to the single "That's That" after receiving advice from Young, and stating that his input is what made the song a hit. As Dr. Dre told Time Magazine in 2001, "One of the things I like most about producing is recording vocals," he says. "I like instructing people, but I'm also trying to bring out a good performance, so I work with them—encourage them." [11]
Although Snoop Dogg retains working relationships with Warren G and Daz, who are alleged to be uncredited contributors on the hit albums The Chronic and Doggystyle, he states that Dr. Dre is capable of making beats without the help of collaborators, and makes it clear where the credit for the success of his albums is due-
Beatmakers make beats. A lot of niggas make beats. [Dre] produces tracks. So that ain't disrespect what I'm saying. I'm just telling you what's real. I seen him make tracks from scratch. My whole record the nigga made damn near everything from scratch. [For the song] "Ain't No Fun", Daz and Warren G brought him the little [sings melody], that's all they had! Dre took that muthafucka to the next level! Warren G brought in the [sample of] Donny Hathaway [singing], "Little Ghetto Boy, laying in the ghetto streets". Dr. Dre flipped it like "Hold on, gimme that!" Took that muthafucka and made it straight hit!... They made beats, Dre produced that record. Point blank, and I'd say it in they face...I can make a beat, but I can't produce! I can make a beat, but can I tell a nigga what to rap about, can I tell him when to come with the hook? Can you break the beat down? That's what producing is.
It is also widely acknowledged that most of Dr. Dre's raps are written for him by others, though he retains ultimate control over his lyrics and the themes of his songs. As Aftermath Producer Mahogany told Scratch: "It's like a class room in [the booth]. He'll have three writers in there. They'll bring in something, he'll recite it, then he'll say. 'Change this line, change this word,' like he's grading papers." (See references for details.)
As seen in the credits for tracks Young has appeared on, there are often multiple people who contribute to his songs (although it should be noted that often in hip-hop many people are officially credited as a writer for a song, even the producer). As a member of N.W.A., The D.O.C. wrote lyrics for him while he stuck with producing (See D.O.C interview in references for details). When Young went to Death Row, Snoop Dogg took on a lot of the writing work for Dr. Dre, although it should be noted that Dre has never openly admitted or denied this. More recently, famed New York rapper Jay-Z ghostwrote lyrics for the 2001 single "Still D.R.E." (He is listed under the songwriting credits as "S. Carter", or Shawn Carter).

what fun

no more popists! it's called "soda"

not where i come from dude. and some people just call them cokes.

oh shit. i didn't mean that to be racist. cokes come in a rainbow of colors.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, That one guy.