tHE aEROPLANE fLIES hIGH

forget it simon, it's snrub

Billy's songwriting didn't significantly dip until Zeitgeist imo (and especially TBK). TheFutureEmbrace has great songs but he fucked them up in the studio.

"jerry" was so hyped before i ever heard it that i also struggled to understand it for years but it just like... nails this unbelievably beautiful vibe that doesn't resemble any other pumpkins song (or many other songs i can think of). i wish there was a band that just sounded like that

i think his songwriting dipped to a degree, to the point where his quality control issues became more apparent circa machina and zwan, whereas it sorta doesn't matter between siamese dream/pisces iscariot and mellon collie/aeroplane which songs are on which, because they're all at least good

there are many wonderful zwan songs and they are not on the zwan record (which i like)

Mary Star of the Sea is a flawed & compromised record but if you take the best of it (title track, Settle Down, Of a Broken Heart, Lyric, Come with Me, Endless Summer, I guess Honestly) and the far superior live-only songs (Chrysanthemum, Rivers We Can't Cross, Cast a Stone, My Life + Times, A New Poetry), there's an album or two of songs that rival his '90s golden streak.

god i wish he had made that record. though i'm not a big fan of "of a broken heart" or "endless summer" tbh

"lyric" is such a fucking jam though

well he's sitting on ~65 unreleased Zwan songs, been teasing those since the Pumpkins reissue campaign began in 2011. but he said recently that he'd only get around to it once the label/legal issues holding up the Machina reissue are resolved.

amazing guitar tones on that record too, even though it sounds kinda horrible generally

but yeah, like Machina, MSOTS was hobbled by Billy second-guessing himself and thinking too much about radio, the audience, singles... I mean there's that ridiculous quote from early 2003 where he's talking about how MSOTS is "the pop record, the one for them, next one will be the arty record." yeah great, that really worked out Bill

xp yeah the guitars on the title track are incredible, but it suffers from that awful aughts brick walling / super compression

i also would like to rep for "declarations of faith" which i think is p underrated even though it probably falls in with the more obvious pop songs on the album. it sort of like what if "i of the mourning" was a happy pop song imo

hm maybe i'll bump the zwan thread

Ages since I've listened to the Zwan record by my favourite song was always 'Ride a Black Swan' - gorgeous bridge, amazing drumming throughout.

I will revisit that song based solely on your I of the Mourning comparison. that's in my top 10. Something about it has really grown on me the past ~3 years. the second verse is one of my favorites he's ever written ("I blow the dust off my guitar...")

"i of the mourning" is prob my fav pumpkins song just for the ending alone. it also always sounded incredible live

Someone on netphoria did a cool tempo analysis of a bunch of Pumpkins songs a while ago. "I of the Mourning" stuck out as a song that gradually increases in tempo throughout and never dips, the whole song is climbing to that climax

During the original run of the Pumpkins, they maybe put out a small handful of tracks that were less than great, but most of the stuff they put out was gold.

The Zwan record could have been better, but there's a lot I like on it - 'Lyric' is a great song, 'Ride a Black Swan' too.

I'm not much into either of Corgan's solo LP's or Zeitgeist ... there's some neat songs in the Teargarden by Kaleidyscope stuff and love Oceania.

I generally think he's past his peak as a songwriter but Corgan's antics get on my wick these days.

'Declarations of Faith' is a good obe too!

'I of the Mourning' has always been a favourite, I love the new wave-y guitar sound on it. I remember a lot of people being down on MACHINA at the time, and it was frustrating because it isn't that bad a record. Same with Adore.

*one

i love Billy's description of the guitar sound on Machina: "Judas Priest plus Simple Minds." that really comes across in IOTM, especially the bass & sheet distortion + very 80s chorus...

lol, i love the transition between the cure and the pumpkins' versions of "a night like this" in that clip above. when it switches over it sounds like someone's subtly pushing their finger against a spinning record.

lol. also the transition between og "destination unknown" and their cover sounds like it's shifting into a shitty demo

I really love their cover of Depeche Mode's 'Never Let Me Down Again' ... I think the band themselves were full of praise for it too.

^^ It's a good one. I had that 4x7" singles box for quite some time, till I swapped it for cash. It was the b-side of Rocket 7", no?

Heart you Flappy, but Set the Ray to Jerry is top 10 SP material man.

Clip is great. Painfully great. How did he get so lost etc

it's a great song, and I agree with Brad that it stands alone in SP's massive body of work, it really expresses a very specific yet ineffable emotion... still not one that moved me like 50+ other BC songs... but it is a gem

How did he get so lost etc

Forced breakup of original lineup very shortly after that rehearsal was filmed + the lukewarm reception of Adore broke him. I love Ogilala because it's the first time since Adore where he's been completely open and let himself be vulnerable. Every other record, and I love a lot of them, is clouded either by conceit or second-guessing. Adore is a remarkably honest record, and once he got whipped for it, he went from shell to shell for each project for the next 20 years.

never underestimate the ability of a wildly insecure paranoiac/egomaniac to get lost as hell imo

yep

Really want to dig for the cassette I played religiously circa 94/95 when doing my paper route. All pre-Gish songs. Now that would be a poll!

(got the cassette through Listessa, the SP mailing list when I just got online. How that is 23 years ago right now, I've no clue...)

*mailing list I was one when I just got online

going off purely by memory i think i'd vote for "my eternity" in that poll

Good call! 'On My Own' was the one that always devastated me.

i know it's popular to hate on zeitgeist but i liked it a lot at the time even though it was a total miscalculation in mood. (it's possible that i wanted it to be much better than it is.) "that's the way (my love is)" is a great song and single imo, and i still think "ma belle" is the best sp mk2 song

can't see putting myself through "united states" again though, woof

oh but "bring the light" is wonderful imo

Ah I see, the big discussion was over here.

"jerry" was so hyped before i ever heard it that i also struggled to understand it for years but it just like... nails this unbelievably beautiful vibe that doesn't resemble any other pumpkins song (or many other songs i can think of). i wish there was a band that just sounded like that

Pretty much as soon as I got that single at the time of release and heard that I was all "Well this is ridiculously perfect." Maybe the closest thing to it was "Glynis" but that's not even really true in terms of actual construction or arrangement -- it's just a question of vibe as you say. That song honored a friend and acknowledged final loss. This one seems to create warmth, a space that can be filled, rather than an unavoidable gap.

"i of the mourning" is prob my fav pumpkins song just for the ending alone. it also always sounded incredible live

It did indeed.

Glynis most def closest to Jerry.

i know it's popular to hate on zeitgeist but i liked it a lot at the time even though it was a total miscalculation in mood. (it's possible that i wanted it to be much better than it is.) "that's the way (my love is)" is a great song and single imo, and i still think "ma belle" is the best sp mk2 song

Posting here because there are two BC threads up already... new footage from the pre-VMAs '96 interview with Tabitha Soren about Jimmy's firing & Jonathan's death. Never seen any of this, & it's from the same channel. They've been uploading tons of archival stuff in the past few days that I've never heard or seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjO0Xou_RPg

Spoke too soon - first 3 minutes is new, rest is the footage that's been out there for a while, albeit in much better quality.

and yeah that was Matt Walker rehearsing with them in the first video too, not Jimmy

there are some great riffs on the pre-Gish stuff. like "nothing and everything" and "c'mon"

Set the Ray To Jerry is probably the best Mellon Collie B-side but I don't really get the hype, it's quite good but not incredible. there are some Bloc Party tracks with fairly similar feelings I think. most of the other B-sides seem like B-sides for a reason though.

I always thought PENNIES was the best b-side of theirs from this era. Could've been a hit single along the lines of MUZZLE or 33 if shipped to radio.

Those MTV clips bring back memories. God how I'd used to watch The Week in Rock hoping for any mention of SP back then.

About the Mellon Collie B-sides, I think we can ALL agree that "The Boy" was Iha's best SP song by a wide country mile.

Iha's best song is by far Blew Away

"Go" is pretty. "...Said Sadly" is nice in its own way. I thought his voice was a bit weak on "Blew Away," but I do like the song.

Watching those clips flappy posted reminds me how great Iha was as a foil to Billy's bloviating in interviews.

I'd agree on 'The Boy' but '...Said Sadly' is lovely too. Listening to the Zwan album on YouTube last night led me to Iha's first solo album which I'd never heard before - pretty mediocre but there were a couple of nice '60s pop styled songs towards the end.

I became obsessed with The Smashing Pumpkins in January 2010 after 17 years of being a very casual fan. In Billy, and the Pumpkins, I saw everything I wanted to do as a musician and a performer. Literally every detail: the awe-inspiring work ethic, the aesthetics, the mix of humor & power, the frankness and honesty compared to other more coy Gen X artists, the clothes, his playing style, his gestures, his tics. And, obviously, the music and lyrics. It was beyond just being a huge fan, it was a dead end. For years I felt it was impeding me creatively and I think my sudden superfandom in 2010 really derailed my own work. So after nearly a decade of superfandom, where I evangelized and acted as a surrogate defender of maligned artist at his lowest point (does it get any worse than the Teargarden era?).

I'm still regularly inspired by artists I've loved for years, and songs I've heard a million times, but Billy is different. The Pumpkins weren't giving me anything anymore, and they took up space in my brain, so I expelled them for a decade. I feel great.

Fitting for The Aeroplane Flies High thread, because that was the last song I listened to back in July.

Discussion of said band may continue at a moderate pace, Instagram may be accessed, Q&A's may be read.

I felt like I was burning a dead circuit, for years.

is there like a 12-step for that or did you just white-knuckle it

did you guys know that despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage?

we know buddy don't beat yourself up

flappy i wanna hear your band

i should probably poll this again without the a-sides.

Flappy just think of all of Billy's appearances on Joe Rogan you can binge in 2030.