In the grand scheme, I guess it doesn't make much difference. They left behind a lot of music I can listen to.
The good: Carrie's NPR blog is frequently a great read. Corin's had another little baby. The bad: Janet is a Jick.
That's all. I'm just griping.
― Johnny Fever, Sunday, 1 June 2008 09:42 (fifteen years ago) link
Their last few albums were 'meh' to me. But when I saw them on their farewell tour they blew me away, even with the later stuff. I'm so glad I saw them before they broke up.
― MacDara, Sunday, 1 June 2008 10:35 (fifteen years ago) link
who do you miss most? the one that sounds like t'pau, or the one who sings through her nose?
― jeremy waters, Sunday, 1 June 2008 12:11 (fifteen years ago) link
The good: Carrie's NPR blog is frequently a great read
You mean this excrescence?
I DO miss them, but The Woods suggested that they'd exhausted their original store of matereial. Maybe they can reunite in a few years like their buddies The Go-Betweens.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:36 (fifteen years ago) link
lol, rockism
― jeremy waters, Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:39 (fifteen years ago) link
it's like a whole new handy way of not actually having to explain why you disagree with something! it's a "that's gay" for the 00s!
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:46 (fifteen years ago) link
johnny fever otm. carrie's blog is fun.
― gabbneb, Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:50 (fifteen years ago) link
reading carrie's npr blog killed my ten-years'-worth of crush on her. :(
― permanent resolution, Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:53 (fifteen years ago) link
I wish I understood what people see in this band.
― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:55 (fifteen years ago) link
awesome, xp. i always thought she was kinda boring, and it's made her almost as interesting as corin for me.
― gabbneb, Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:58 (fifteen years ago) link
i never got into them myself but a lot of my friends loved them.
― Surmounter, Sunday, 1 June 2008 16:01 (fifteen years ago) link
rockism, 1997: a term describing one or several clusters of aesthetic assumptions regarding music specifically and art generally; strongly related to tropes of "authenticity," "importance," et al
rockism, 2008: not liking Madonna enough
― J0hn D., Sunday, 1 June 2008 16:28 (fifteen years ago) link
"my affection towards Madonna waned. I soon discovered music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance"
"Madonna goes beyond the usual banality and sterility of contemporary pop. Now and again, I'll hear a pop song on the radio and be able to enjoy it as a guilty pleasure. But I can't say that I am drawn to Madonna in that way, she takes herself too seriously. And even that would be tolerable if she weren't so artistically gutless."
― jeremy waters, Sunday, 1 June 2008 16:31 (fifteen years ago) link
music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 1 June 2008 16:32 (fifteen years ago) link
fish to chum
― J0hn D., Sunday, 1 June 2008 16:48 (fifteen years ago) link
The bad: Janet is a Jick.
I beg to differ -- Janet adds a nice OOMPH to the skins on Real Emotional Trash, and that aside, I think it's also Malkmus' best album yet, post-Pavement. love it love it love it.
― stephen, Sunday, 1 June 2008 17:09 (fifteen years ago) link
I wish I understood what people see in Pavement. Or the Jicks. Or the 90s.
― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 1 June 2008 17:10 (fifteen years ago) link
i'm sure Janet adds oomph to the Jicks. but it's such a step down.
― gabbneb, Sunday, 1 June 2008 17:22 (fifteen years ago) link
i will hear no bad word about pavement (even though the other day I dumped all their records off my hard drive because I don't listen to them anymore.
I can hang with Dig Me Out, but too much of this stuff and it's soooo lol earnest.
― kenan, Sunday, 1 June 2008 17:32 (fifteen years ago) link
Pavement != Jicks != 90s
― stephen, Sunday, 1 June 2008 17:34 (fifteen years ago) link
@Alfred: Though I still love Madonna (or did as recently as 2005...now, not so sure), I enjoy a thoughtful dissent instead of someone just saying "she sucks, are you stoopid?!"
― Johnny Fever, Sunday, 1 June 2008 20:36 (fifteen years ago) link
Johnny, this is far from a thoughtful dismissal. A statement like "I soon discovered music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance" tells me that she's an idealogue, or at the very least deaf to the qualities which made S-K's music so transformative. Then again, this is the person who had a hand in writing "Entertain," so I should expect idealogical purity.
I can't decide whether I hate that "most of all" or the thought informing the phrase with greater intensity.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 1 June 2008 21:32 (fifteen years ago) link
I DO miss them, but The Woods suggested that they'd exhausted their original store of matereial.
actually, it suggested they desperately needed a mastering engineer who understood the concept of dynamics.
― Lawrence the Looter, Sunday, 1 June 2008 21:44 (fifteen years ago) link
Right -- and were relying on production tricks, filters, disguises, and affect to mitigate the loss of intensity and the increasing suspicion that this was same-old same-old.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 1 June 2008 21:46 (fifteen years ago) link
Rich wrote a totally reasonable dismissal of Hard Candy. And he doesn't care for her much.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 1 June 2008 21:49 (fifteen years ago) link
Alfred, c'mon, that post Carrie wrote is mostly about Madonna the phenomenon, not Madonna's new album.
― Mr. Que, Sunday, 1 June 2008 21:57 (fifteen years ago) link
No -- it's also about Madonna the artist. Brownstein doesn't find Madonna worthwhile other than as something vaguely embarrassing/fun she listened to in her childhood. Again, I take issue with terms with which she'd dismissed her. I posted Rick's review as an example of how to do it RIGHT.
Then again, musicians being reactionary non-shockah.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 1 June 2008 22:02 (fifteen years ago) link
A statement like "I soon discovered music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance" tells me that she's an idealogue, or at the very least deaf to the qualities which made S-K's music so transformative.
Alfred, I hope you know that over the years I have really come to value your opinions on music. When I think about what's good about ilx, I think of you, because some of the stuff you've said has really pointed me toward new ways of thinking about music: both about music I'd dismissed or not been able to enjoy as much as I'd hoped, and, on the other hand, as a way also of confirming for me some things I already thought but hadn't quite defined for myself.
I set this up this way because I couldn't disagree with you more on this, and I don't want you to think I'm just being reflexive or unduly dismissive. Carrie's position here is not the "asked/answered/resolved" bunch of non-starter that we all thought it was back in the late 20th century. I built much of my career on a belief that authenticity tropes were bullshit, but I'm no longer as sure of that as I was. S/K's body of work, from beginning to end, can be read as an argument for it, and what I want to say to you is that that argument isn't a pointless retread of things already decided; if it were, S/K's music wouldn't have resonated like it did.
I mean that said I don't like her article either, but that particular point is not, I feel confident, as empty as we have most of us spent many years thinking it to be.
― J0hn D., Sunday, 1 June 2008 22:33 (fifteen years ago) link
I enjoy Monitor Mix immensely...
― calstars, Sunday, 1 June 2008 22:38 (fifteen years ago) link
it may be helpful to understand that she's not really doing rock criticism per se, al. also that she's right.
― gabbneb, Sunday, 1 June 2008 22:45 (fifteen years ago) link
It'll be helpful, John, if we separate discussion of S-K's merits from Brownstein's post. If by "authenticity tropes" you mean those qualities in S-K's music that made their depiction of love and loss more powerful and transgressive (hence authentic) than any band of their generation, I totally agree.
But the means by which they reach those authentic depictions of love and loss aren't so clear. From the use of shouted and/or interwined harmonies of The Hot Rock to Carrie's English accent in "Combat Rock" and Corin's Yoko Ono-ese in "Milkshake and Honey," this is a band that relished distance. On their best songs the distance forced us to understand those relationship travails in the frustrating manner of listening to a friend describe a problem whose emotional lexicon you don't get but your empathy and love help you try anyway.
In her post, Brownstein advocates an approach to music that undercuts her contribution to the crafting of S-K's music; call it myopia or naivete. But since we respond to art differently than when we make it, maybe I'll cut her some slack.
btw thanks for the very kind words. They're the nicest things anyone's said all week.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 1 June 2008 22:57 (fifteen years ago) link
like I said, I have no problem with her indifference to Madonna, but if she thinks Maddie doesn't employ S-K's processes in her own music -- more subversively in her best work, because she's working as a pop artist -- she's fooling herself.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 1 June 2008 22:59 (fifteen years ago) link
But the means by which they reach those authentic depictions of love and loss aren't so clear.
Well, but this is where I'm going with this: I think they're not as unclear as those of use who're fond of theory are prone to think. I wonder if the distance you speak of on earlier S/K records isn't somewhat a product of not having enough budget (=time to listen to mixes & re-think) rather than of embracing ambiguities, and I'm less convinced of the null value of authorial intention than I was...well, to shoot straight, than I was before I'd been the guy with an intention for 15 years or so.
Here we may approach a kind of uncrossable divide: for a performer who traffics, or comes to traffic, in personal/less-veiled/more-direct performances, the things that consequently occur between performer & audience may redefine the space in such a way that previously-embraced models lose some of their appeal. If this is true, I'm kind of a worthless debate partner here, because I know exactly when a lot of my thoughts about the relationship between performer & material & audience got a lot less clearly separable for me, and where some of the old tired "you can tell when somebody's really close to his material" tropes began to seem less hollow/phoned-in to me.
But since we respond to art differently than when we make it, maybe I'll cut her some slack.
but yeah unfortunately this is the other thing: what artists have to say about art is of quetstionable value: forest/trees etc.
― J0hn D., Sunday, 1 June 2008 23:48 (fifteen years ago) link
From the use of shouted and/or interwined harmonies of The Hot Rock to Carrie's English accent in "Combat Rock" and Corin's Yoko Ono-ese in "Milkshake and Honey," this is a band that relished distance.
affecting accents automatically = "distance"? from louis armstrong's entirely half-valved solo in fletcher henderson's "shanghai shuffle" to arthur lee adopting a faux-english accent in love's "andmoreagain", to m.i.a's myriad vocal affectations, nothing could be further from the truth. if anything, such changes in approach reduce distance by (among other things) partially deflating the self-seriousness of a piece, giving the listener a knowing wink, while drawing them closer.
― Lawrence the Looter, Monday, 2 June 2008 00:57 (fifteen years ago) link
You said "automatically," I didn't.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 2 June 2008 00:59 (fifteen years ago) link
M.I.A.'s "myriad" vocal affectations are precisely why she doesn't deserve a place here -- sometimes they add distance, sometimes they do what you say.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:01 (fifteen years ago) link
I have no problem with her indifference to Madonna
I do. That is totally rockist. next thing you'll be saying Mariah carey isn't the greatest singer in the history of music.
― kornrulez6969, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:25 (fifteen years ago) link
haha
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:26 (fifteen years ago) link
wtf is going on on this thread
― Surmounter, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:26 (fifteen years ago) link
people havin a discussion branching out from an essay by a woman who used to play in Sleater-Kinney
any other questions
― J0hn D., Monday, 2 June 2008 01:29 (fifteen years ago) link
You guys are over my head now, with all the talk about motivations and artist p'sov. I admit that when I first read Carrie's article about Madonna, something inside me said "eew, I'd have expected better," but then I realized that anyone can dislike pretty much anything for whatever reason makes him or her comfortable and left it at that.
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:45 (fifteen years ago) link
no thanks john that was a good summation. i have a feeling if i read the essay i'd get upset and start having bullshit arguments so i think i won't. sound ok?
― Surmounter, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:51 (fifteen years ago) link
it's not much of an essay, it's quite brief. The gist of it is Madonna = contrived.
― wilter, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:54 (fifteen years ago) link
i see
well duh
― Surmounter, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:54 (fifteen years ago) link
Can anyone give me a good reason to like this band?
― brightscreamer, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:58 (fifteen years ago) link
I thought we did!
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 2 June 2008 02:00 (fifteen years ago) link
One of the members saw the beastie boys booed off stage one time. True story.
xpost
― wilter, Monday, 2 June 2008 02:01 (fifteen years ago) link
brightscreamer please name one band you didn't like and then somebody told you "here's a reason to like them" and then you were like "oh ok well then I see, they are my favorite now"
― J0hn D., Monday, 2 June 2008 02:21 (fifteen years ago) link
That worked with me on The Velvet Underground. Someone said, "Listen to 'The Gift'" and it worked. That probably explains why I still like John Cale more than any other member, but at least I don't turn my nose up at any of the first four VU records anymore.
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 2 June 2008 02:25 (fifteen years ago) link
What's so impressive about them, though? They just seem so ordinary to me in every way other than their gender.
― brightscreamer, Monday, 2 June 2008 02:28 (fifteen years ago) link
plus "Entertain" isn't a cudgel; it's a rare misstep, sung by the band's resident Mother Jones reader.
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 5 September 2011 22:23 (twelve years ago) link
mojo's a very worthwhile mag soto don't front
― balls, Monday, 5 September 2011 22:25 (twelve years ago) link
Mother Jones is too.
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 5 September 2011 22:26 (twelve years ago) link
the band's resident Mother Jones reader
how dare u
― mookieproof, Monday, 5 September 2011 23:10 (twelve years ago) link
John D left a lot of bodies on this thred. man i miss this band. i feel like everything I've liked since 2006 is just trying to replace the sensation of seeing them live.
― Bringing the mosh (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 25 April 2014 04:46 (nine years ago) link
If you hate Interpol on first listen, you're going to muster every bit of armature and sophistry in your behalf.― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, September 5, 2011 10:18 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinkbetter grab some penicillin also― balls, Monday, September 5, 2011 10:21 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
better grab some penicillin also― balls, Monday, September 5, 2011 10:21 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― endzone selfie (bernard snowy), Friday, 25 April 2014 07:21 (nine years ago) link
― brightscreamer, Monday, 2 June 2008 01:58 (5 years ago)
― J0hn D., Monday, 2 June 2008 02:21 (5 years ago) Permalink
J0hn D. - Animal Collective.
― brightscreamer, Monday, 2 June 2008 02:29 (5 years ago) Permalink
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 25 April 2014 11:37 (nine years ago) link
Non-contribution: I liked Neskowin off Corin's last solo record more than most SK songs. It's my #4 most played song on iTunes. The kind of song that drew me to them but with none of the "This Is An Important Band" baggage that became overwhelming after they broke up.
Can't hardly listen to The Woods anymore. Go back to Hot Rock a lot.
― kaleb, Saturday, 26 April 2014 08:52 (nine years ago) link
Also, Start Together and Quarter to Three are perfect.
― kaleb, Saturday, 26 April 2014 09:05 (nine years ago) link
So glad the world has Sleater-Kinney in it again!
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 20 October 2014 13:27 (nine years ago) link
Just now, on FB:
Sleater-Kinney. Produced by St. Vincent. 2019.
― Infidels, Like Dylan In The Eighties (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 16:06 (five years ago) link
this....hmmm.
― resident hack (Simon H.), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 16:07 (five years ago) link
the promo photo going around with that makes it seem like no one in S-K is happy about it.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:00 (five years ago) link
tbf St-V's records don't sound that good so I'm not that excited about this (yet)
― resident hack (Simon H.), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:11 (five years ago) link
Always nice to hear about another S-K record. But outside of Jeff Lynne, I'm not sure there's a producer whose sound I like less.
― kornrulez6969, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:11 (five years ago) link
otm, sadly
― eva logorrhea (bendy), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:14 (five years ago) link
the replies to the tweet were all basically YASS KWEENS SLAY and my response is basically =|
― officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 22:36 (five years ago) link
St-V records have been produced by John Congleton, except the last one (Congleton and Antonoff and somebody else) and the acoustic re-imagining of the last one (St. V and Thomas Bartlett) and at this point I think she probably is equipped to be herself as good or better a producer as any of her producers
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 22:48 (five years ago) link
sent to a friend earlier: "I mean eno/byrne works so I guess. It does kinda sniff of “all my new famous friends” but idk. I can’t say anything bad about any of them"
― YouTube_-_funy_cats.flv (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 22:58 (five years ago) link
SK are a strong enough band to shine through whatever production they choose, so i'm happy they're making another record. hopefully it's as good as the last one
― bros before HOOS (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:07 (five years ago) link
I kind of would like them to aim a little higher (haven't felt the desire to listen to No Cities since the reunion tour).
― Siouxie Sioux Vide (Leee), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:18 (five years ago) link
No Cities has been a surprisingly fitting soundtrack to the Trump years.
― Infidels, Like Dylan In The Eighties (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:27 (five years ago) link
Maybe she'll be their Daniel Lanois. (Which I'm not even sure if I mean as a good or bad thing.)
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 03:11 (five years ago) link
I wanna be your Daniel Lanoisput reverb on everything, make it sound like gauze
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 15:55 (five years ago) link
I like St. Vincent best when she's rocking out the aggro covers (Pop Group, Big Black) so I'm optimistic
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 16:18 (five years ago) link
agree with fgti here. not sure if i like that best as much as maybe "appreciate that bit the most." man i've never really thought about that feeling, when you look at an artist and think "i love that she goes _there_," rather than "this is what she does BEST"!
― Hunt3r, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:15 (five years ago) link
I saw her a bunch on the St. V tour and found myself looking forward to those covers extremely, the moment when she and her band go off-click and just rock out. "Like her best when she's" is accurate for my experience, but like, I think the contrast between her slaved-to-a-click main set and those aggro digressions is partially responsible for why I liked those moments so much
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 18:40 (five years ago) link
haven't felt the desire to listen to No Cities since the reunion tour
OK this was kind of dumb of me to say, as I listened just now and it was great -- "Fade" is kind of an SK metal song!
― Oleeever St. John Yogurty (Leee), Saturday, 19 January 2019 00:13 (five years ago) link
St. Vincent too fussy.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 19 January 2019 01:04 (five years ago) link
NSFW Tweet teasing... something
― a large tuna called “Justice” (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 13:06 (four years ago) link
ITT: a butt
― ☮ (peace, man), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 13:13 (four years ago) link
they're playing the Hopscotch Festival in Raleigh in September, hopefully the album will be out by then? (I'm not clicking that link)
― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 13:17 (four years ago) link
i think it's teasing a new single
― Accidentally Gets High By Touching LSD Left in Vintage Buchla (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:55 (four years ago) link
not a big st. vincent fan so was a bit worried but first single rules
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5uAH0vNn2s
― devvvine, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:14 (four years ago) link
could maybe do without the reverby yelps
― devvvine, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:16 (four years ago) link
this sounds very much like what i'd expect sleater-kinney produced by st. vincent to sound like
― ufo, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:21 (four years ago) link
I like it! Never have really listened to St. Vincent, so to me it sounds like a less noisey The Woods.
― a large tuna called “Justice” (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:26 (four years ago) link
otm xp
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:28 (four years ago) link
Missed this charity album track from '17 (not on youtube): https://open.spotify.com/album/3BEQvcAzhYWoYVu41ySTdd?si=dIHsWEd5Q724zQew6N6Yxg
― a large tuna called “Justice” (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:33 (four years ago) link
I'm really digging this, and ufo otm. It's weird (but good) that there's so much bass in the mix, though, considering Janet said a few years ago, "That big bass sound that hits you in your gut is unpleasant!"
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:37 (four years ago) link
Really liking this
― Michael F Gill, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:02 (four years ago) link
Miranda July! I always forget about her.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:06 (four years ago) link
Liking this too! It feels like a logical progression from NCTL, dancey post-punk but this time with glossier production.
― In a station of the metro / My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard (Leee), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 17:41 (four years ago) link
Fall US/Canada tour announced today too.
― a large tuna called “Justice” (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 17:50 (four years ago) link
I never listen to No Cities to Love, but it's one of the better comebacks of recent years -- it's like they never left.
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 17:52 (four years ago) link
Yes. I’m happy for a world with Sleater-Kinney.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 18:56 (four years ago) link
Pre-sale tix available now.
― In a station of the metro / My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard (Leee), Friday, 7 June 2019 19:15 (four years ago) link
New Song!
https://open.spotify.com/album/2KF3U2jrmF8c9L2TmHw3Xa?si=Xh8F8NYgRNSntkaGnkTBqA
"The Future Is Here"...a slower New Wave-y Corin track.
― a large tuna called “Justice” (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 14 June 2019 04:22 (four years ago) link
I take back the whole premise of this thread. Now I dream of a world without Sleater-Kinney.
― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, 12 May 2021 02:35 (two years ago) link
So much older then...
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 12 May 2021 03:22 (two years ago) link