Timbaland (and other R'n'B producers ransacking world music) C/D

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Get UR Freak On, Petey Pablo's Raise Up, Oochy Wally, People Like Myself plus Ms. Dynamite's It Takes More ...

I say classic. The smash and grab raid on Indian, Arabic, Flamenco and Gypsy music by urban producers has gotta be the best trend around. (And deserved payback for all those cultures nicking hip-hop beats for the last 15 - 20 years.)

Oh ... and do we blame/credit Coldcut & Ofra Haza?

― phil, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"It Takers More" isn't produced by Timbaland!!

― reg, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nor was "Oochy Wally" - I think Phil's talking about modern R&B generally.

― Tim, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I say classic too, 'cause it's hardly a new trend, is it? Pop music raids 'world'? It's been going on since the 50s (hell, probably since the 20s). I like it in its current form because it's so irreverent to the cultures it rips off, which is the only way to do it. Trying to be too 'respectful' of tradition often results in patronising, careful music, a pale imitation of the music form it's nicking rather than an unashamed reappropration that's led purely by the need for a new sound and a fresh sound and the right sound IN YOUR OWN CONTEXT. The Paul Simon-esque principle of trying to 'understand' and 'connect with' a different culture and the more laudable aim of actually immersing yourself in and studying a different kind of music - nope. we like it, it no-one else has done it yet, we'll have it. R n B: the new tiki. Colonial, yes, but classic, definitely

― synaesiac, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Tim : exactly

― phil, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Who produced "Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Can See?" by Busta? That track is similarly vibed and proceeded all of those by years.

― Scott, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't have a problem with it - the stuff I've heard is classic - I just question the terms "ransacking" and "world music". I just wonder why we're always so self-referential in American pop music - obv we tend towards stuff in our own language, using genres we kinda took the lead in, but when everyone in the world seems to make and like some version of pop music, why not "ransack" it openly from everyone and have them do the same? We're all doing that anyhow, but why pretend to have barriers in the first place? Why do we even bother using the term "world music"? I guess this is just some rehashed dumb and tired and cliched and loaded and simplistic "Why can't we all just share information" rant or whatever, but I just never understood it. This isn't about being PC, either.

― geeta, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And I guess I'm the big hypocrite because I was the one who was going on about Truth Hurts - 'Addictive' using a filmi sample and how it weirded me out because it ripped it out without any knowledge of the sample's meaning or whatever, but I've changed my mind after thinking about it some more. I don't see how the new meaning of the "ransacked" sample is any less "authentic" than its relationship to the original song it was taken from - if anything, adding the Bollywood sample to an American pop song doesn't "exploit" the sample but helps bring out its power. Also, the song is hot.

― geeta, Wednesday, 19 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

When I used "ransacked" I wasn't trying to imply it was immoral. I was trying to capture these moods : "rushed", "indiscriminate", "urgent", "disrespectful". In other words ... the anti-Paul Simon virtues.

Having said that I jsut want to defend Paul Simon for a moment. Paul Simon has a long history of borrowing bits and pieces he needs from world music w/out a big "respect" thing. Think "El Condor Passa" or the sublime "So Long, Frank Lloyd Wright"

Then what happened in the 80s, when he came out with Graceland, was a huge amount of criticism that he was exploiting this music. Exactly the opposite of the criticism on ILM. So I wonder if maybe he was a lot more relaxed about appropriating musical styles until then, and then started to feel he had to come out with a discourse of "respect" in order to defend himself.

― phil, Thursday, 20 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Phil - I was about to say what you just did. "Mother and Child Reunion" used reggae without announcing itself as reggae, and it was wonderful. We had an interesting pop tourism thread on similar subjects last year. I do think that immersing yourself and getting a better understanding of the music most likely wouldn't result in reverence, since a lot of music is irreverent in its original context anyway. I'm reminding myself of what Peter Stampfel said about his attitude towards the old- timey music he loved; something along the lines of how can you be austere and reverant when what you're inspired by was first recorded by a band that called itself Gid Tanner & His Skillet Lickers? So what he and the Holy Modal Rounders were inspired to do was to mix everything up and play around, throw Troggs and psychedelia into the old-time mix.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 20 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

five years pass...

http://www.wayneandwax.com/

Did you see Wayne's September 12th posting on his blog with his mashup. Here's an excerpt from his posting but the good stuff is on his blog ...

Not surprisingly, Timbaland is back in the news — and in the courts — again facing charges of (outsourcing the orient) unauthorized sampling. This time he’s being sued, for the second time, over the use of elements from the Egyptian composition “Khosara” (most famously recorded by Abdel-Halim Hafez back in the 50s) for Jay-Z’s “Big Pimpin,” a worldwide hit in 1999.

According to allhiphop.com –

Copyright co-owner Osama Admed Fahmy filed the lawsuit in Los Angeles Federal Court, claiming that Timbaland illegally replayed portions of “Big Pimpin” note-for-note, using a melody lifted from the song “Khosara, Khosara” which was written by composer Baligh Hamdi and performed by Egyptian star Abdel-Halim Hafez in 1957.

Longtime readers of this humble blogger might recall that I discussed this case (or, that is, an earlier case based on the same dispute) way back when over at the Riddim Method. Back then, I linked to an article in Al-Ahram which offered various perspectives on the situation and ultimately made the interesting argument that Egyptian music wasn’t getting its proper due because of Timbaland’s unacknowledged borrowings and — adding insult to injury — that some journalists were projecting the distinctive sounds of Egypt onto other exotic spots in their musical imagination, calling the production “a swaying, South-Seas flavoured groove that’s a happy musical marriage of Brooklyn and Bali,” say, or “Bollywood-wigged NOLA bounce stutter-stepping.” (Now them’s some music crit chops.) This sort of misled/misleading identification, however, is not so surprising given the way Timbaland passes off Colombians as Indians, among other others.

Good ol’ jacking for beats, right?

Well, sorta, except that the line on this one has been that Timbaland replayed rather than sampled the riff in question (which, in all fairness to Baligh Hamdi, the composer of “Khosara” [not the plaintiff, you will note], is an introductory, recurring, and central motif). At least, that’s clearly implied in the Al-Ahram article:

― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 September 2007 05:03 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.negrophonic.com/

Dj Rupture on another TIMBALAND SAMPLE SOURCE in DJ R's september 7th posting-

I keep digging into Colombian music, and today’s find is exceptional - the source track for Timbaland’s ‘Get to Poppin‘ beat! MuddUp reader Tony IDed it awhile back, but nobody had the recording…

I’d forgotten that I was looking for it until I stumbled across this excellent Aspic records compilation, Colombia - La Ceiba.

Everything on the CD is as good as this (incluso mejor…) Booklet includes bilingual liner notes & lyrics, which i’ll share next week. As with the other Totó la Momposina-related song that Timbaland has used (La Curura sampled/rebranded into Indian Flute), the words to this one form deep folky poetry. A disfrutar!

― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 September 2007 05:24 (eighteen years ago)

whatever she said then i'm that

if this here rocks to y'all then react

― r|t|c, Monday, 17 September 2007 07:25 (eighteen years ago)

"whatever she said then I'm that" = surely the greatest line ever.

― Tim F, Monday, 17 September 2007 07:41 (eighteen years ago)

as well as the name of the third Arctic Monkeys' album.

― Cunga, Monday, 17 September 2007 07:52 (eighteen years ago)

Well then it's not so great. Ha!

― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 September 2007 14:04 (eighteen years ago)

It should be mentioned that Timbo didn't produce "Get to Poppin'", Brian Kidd, rather.

― The Reverend, Monday, 17 September 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

There's a whole discussion of that in the comments on the blog. Apparently Kidd is listed on one version and on a vinyl 12" Timbaland is listed (I think).

― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 September 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

It's Kidd. He's listed on the Pitbull CD.

― Alex in SF, Monday, 17 September 2007 17:44 (eighteen years ago)

And the Rich Boy CD, too.

― The Reverend, Monday, 17 September 2007 17:47 (eighteen years ago)

I misread the comments on DJ Rupture's blog. You are correct. But Kidd and Timbaland have worked together I think.

― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 September 2007 21:21 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah he's a protege of some sort.

― Alex in SF, Monday, 17 September 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)

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