Anthony Braxton: Search and Destroy

Not sure whether "The Montreux/Berlin Concerts" (Arista, 1977) is out on CD yet, but a superb overview of his mid-'70s quartet work; one and a half sides each for the Wheeler/Holland/Altschul and Lewis/Holland/Altschul quartets, plus an orchestral piece with the Berlin New Music Group and Braxton/Lewis as soloists. More passionate alto than you'll find in many of his other works.

The duo album with Max Roach which came out on Black Saint in '79 (sorry don't have it to hand right now so can't remember the title, but definitely out on CD) is also a good 'un.

It scared me out of checking out anything else.

I did hear some Art Ensamble of Chicago music in a jazz history class that was interesting.

I'd recommend the two alb on hatology. 'Quartet' and 'Quintet'. Try the BYG/actuel vinyl reissue: 'B-Xo/ N-O-1-47A'. The other side has a composition each by leo smith and leroy jenkins but braxton's piece is fucked up (a good thing).

Duos: Try the Anthony braxton/Derek bailey duo on emanem (first duo concert). Quite incredible. There's a nice duo with Marilyn Crispell on music and arts and on with bassist Peter niklas wilson on the same label though the derek bailey one is by some distance the pick of the three that I have so far.

'3 compositions for New jazz' is his debut as leader and so I will get that next.

now there's even an opera in english that includes characters from comp. 173, which you might be interested in Douglas

but then there's all the recently documented duo stuff from the nineties and the re-issues of some '70s and '80s stuff plus updates and eventual retirement of the long-standing quartet and then the longer standing quartet/quintet form braxton

then there's the controversial "7 or 14 year plan" ghost trance music of recent times as well as peculiar archival appearances with Teitelbaum or on BMG or the much missed/needed (where are they?) gap- filling Arista re-issues -- the circle document valuably catches a unique meeting of minds before corea converted to scientology, well recorded and featuring brax mainly doing others songs -- it's a typically weirdo drop in the ocean that lot's of people own because it was on ECM and picked up fans of various musos -- that was a year long group with little recording -- it's fair to say that the unique line-up surprise appearance odd one-off release type documents started appearing at relatively exponential rate after that

.. the list goes on and on

a related problem in discussing any of these works is the need for constant recourse to the limited web sites from which picture files can be borrowed to properly present the grahical titles -- braxton has also often included the "jazz sleevenote" as part of the musical equation which whether you like that or not is part of the fun

for me the whole has been greater than the sum of the parts, even though i'm in no position to claim sufficient advancement in the braxton continuum to claim competence in a search/destroy exercise -- i've seen some attempted and such summary "career" assessments often appear glib when set aside all the music, let alone this other peripheral (?) material (graphics, sleevenotes, his "composition notes" books, books on his "composition notes" ..) and set against a non-rockist career strategy itself complicated by various major label PR-ish attempts at definition (itself documented in a book attempting to find a place for braxton as a cultural figure in the usa, or to identify it, based on the wynton marselis style marketing of brax by arista, but marketing without any of the naysaying reductionist bullshit from the "composer" as in the latter dumbed down '80s jazz marketing angle)

Douglas, you've heard some "half-assed" stuff -- to me, documentation has become such a peculiar side-effect of braxton's methods that the piles of cds are inevitable and perhaps with the McArthur award might eventually all end up in the library, which is probably where braxton would like them to turn up -- in '84 he claimed that he wanted to release more records than anyone else and at that stage he noted steve lacy was in the lead (jazz area anyway) -- now he's clearly in the lead -- haino's pace has eased off (braxton's five year = haino's 3 year output) at the moment but haino is losing and that's not taking into account pre-haino braxton numbers that were higher in previous years

just personally i could do with less ghost-trance (or "i don't get it") and less convenient Mills College stuff

one useful rule of thumb -- you visit ten people who own braxton records and seven of them will have one unique record (at least) -- take your time

Yeah, impossible to keep up with either unless you have deep pockets or work in a radio station with an adventurous music policy, I suppose. It will take a long time (prob a long time after he goes) for ppl at large to truly appreciate Anthony Braxton (kinda like bach).

Surely derek bailey is in the running here too George.

I only have abt 8 braxton alb. and so far most are rewarding listens. Some take more time than others.

Braxton is unique and he has done so much really. George, what do you think of his piano playing, can you recommend anything from there?

so i can do "All the things you are" (ie remember the head and find it interesting) which brax has covered usually sax admittedly throughout his career but

no, i don't know the tunes so i don't get the "our version of this standard" thing, that Marsh/Desmond/'Trane thing he's coming from in his approach to standards on sax or piano but since piano is a relatively new indulgence especially his piano versions

that he sticks to old folks at home stuff on piano marks that stuff out as pretty trivial in the greater scheme of things -- his piano covers of standards did not make him famous, and if he prefers Crispell, Oppens, Rzewski, Rosenbloom etc for his _real_ music then that's all the caveat i need

however his horn band work on tribute album music of charlie parker, t monk, tristano/marsh and andrew hill have all been pretty hoony, and it's agreed amoungst jazz beaus of my acquaintance that whereas he respectfully held back on tristano/marsh, his tribute band did up the ante with the parker material (double cd on Hat -- well worth it, good entry to parker/bop even)

''i love this one so much i'll tape it for ye if ye like the sound of the sound of it''

I'll try and find this (i might have seen it). if not then if you could tape it it would be great.

For Alto (Delmark)
Duets 1976 w/Muhal Richard Abrams (Arista)
Company 2 w/Evan Parker & Derek Bailey (Incus)
Donaoeschingen 1976 w/George Lewis (hatART)
For Trio (Arista)
One in Two/Two in One w/Max Roach (Hat Hut)
Moments Precieux w/Derek Bailey (Victo)
Willisau 1991 (hatART)

I also enjoy most of the BYG recordings and the 'Circle" -era band, but i must confess, aside from a few duet recordings, the last 10 years of Braxtonia have left me a bit flat

Braxton is on Alto, most tracks are short (3-4 mins) and its a bunch of marvellous short blasts of intensity.

Braxton and cecil get a lot of respect I think bcz they can maintain intensity for long periods of time without boring you to sleep but here braxton shortens this intensity out and the results are really fucking marvellous.

As good as 'for alto' or 'solo (koln)'.

i can only imagine...

pre-composed modules for varying numbers of players, all breaking into larger/smaller numbers of players, improvised conduction. Comes on like a mess and then really begins tormenting you as you begin to hear the structures sliding around in there... the textures are boggling.

Thanks for the other tips on this thread, I've been meaning to buy more but indeed have been intimidated by the sheer volume.

Anyway, his records are great bounties of imaginative thinking. I've still not heard any of his piano records. I'd be interested in opinions from anyone whose heard him (George's comments up thread were not particularly helpful).

also time zones with richard teitelbaum. explores some of the reallllllllly deep throaty tones (blurts and barks) of braxton while this weirdo goes wild with moog washes.

I've never heard them anywhere else. If he could take current pop songs, bebob them or convert them in some other way, well i think that would be easier for a larger audience to enjoy.

ok current pop music doesn't have that before and after the beat semi-in-determinent 'swing' of old _jazz_ standards (cf: appropriations from pop).
Marches are easy to take the piss out of i suspect, they're more music from the past (and only irrelevently included in the present eg Buck. UK etc.) and they have _no_ swing to start with.

i've tried to listen to people like bing crosby or whoever doing the original song, but that music has a almost-metronomic set 'swing' to me, like old hymns, commercial (Brill ?)
vs.
my parents have enjoyed jazz covers (eg stefan grapelli) but they found bebob was hot and heavy and for them, it was brax who was too 'square looking', in their case by virtue of the orderly-slanted dissonance.

was meant to read

they [my parents] found bepob was too hot and heavy and not for them

A lovely essay in there dedicated to Warne Marsh.

And on the subject of Mr Marsh , the 2 CD Warne Marsh/Sal Mosca Quartet live recordings from 1992 are well worth a listen.

i've read about composed bits designed to sound like improv and vice versa, various spaces for improvisation. I like the idea of not being able to tell composed from improv (particularly, i wish completely improvised stuff was _not_ explained to the degree of being labelled as completely improvised, as it gives the game away sometimes)

i find it easier to make the leap of understanding with braxton's later compositions which come with more colourful and expansive drawings and sometimes even short sci-fi stories. I imagine the drawings collapse some aspects of what i presume the graphic scores contain, whilst including some metaphor or other 'clues'.

(i think i've heard the 'quick succession of equally timed and spaced notes' strategy too often in his music cf: other systems)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=307&item=4066600279&rd=1

Let me add some love for the Wadada Leo Smith/Anthony Braxton duo on Pi Saturn, Conjunct the Grand Canyon in a Sweet Embrace. It is a conversation between two massive souls, rivals Ornette/Cherry for cosmic connection. Some really nice moments.

And since I posted my love for Quartet (London) 1985 above, I picked up (Coventry). The interviews are great and the playing is better than on the London disc, if that is possible. It all feels less confined. Anyway from what I've heard, these two are my favorite Braxton band.

A lot of those Leo's are really good. Some faves are the duo with Evan Parker, the duo with Abraham Adzinyah (sort of a Hamid Drake-like drummer, hadn't heard of him before), and Composition No. 94 For Three Instrumentalists (1980). It's easy to listen to this stuff for days since everything is long and packed with ideas. Sometimes it can be overwhelming but there's always something new around every corner. I do see the humor in some of this stuff, but I always get the sense that Braxton is concentrating very hard.

I have fond memories of Eugene but haven't heard it in years.

Wrong.

In the "just remotely" category, maybe some of the duet/trio pieces with synthesist Richard Teitelbaum, touched upon upthread?

there's no tyondai braxton thread (his son) so here:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27698

Lolz that's terrific.

The Arista records were given a re-issue on Mosaic. Got three on LP from the years of looking at 2nd hand shops: For Trio, Duets '76 and Alto '79. The former especially has become one of my very faves, of only a handful I have from his massive discog.

Not really going to get this boxset but I was wondering about For Four Orchestras. Like how does it compare to Gruppen, for example?

Read an article or two about his time there. Seems really amazing in retrospect how they issued the guy's work for five years, obv orchestral music still gets funding from a variety of resources/foundations that support classical music but how could someone from a jazz background even begin to think of getting a project that functions in that grey area between jazz and classical funded?

Bit late in answering that but what the heck. The thing is, at the time Braxton's signing to Arista made good commercial sense for Arista. Record sales were booming, even sales of jazz records were booming. He was a marketable commodity and Arista made great play out of him in their advertising campaigns. The first few records he did for them were profitable. When he finally got dropped it wasn't because he was failing them in particular. The bottom fell out of the jazz market in general.

What exactly is "forward space"? Is he talking about, say, a 'living' improvisational "canvas" that is always changing based on performers/context? Is it easier to define it in terms of what it is not?

context?

I've given up trying to parse Braxton's theories, I just listen to the music.

Just saw your ans to my little qn anagram. tx.

I've given up trying to parse Braxton's theories, I just listen to the music.

― goth colouring book (anagram), Friday, October 3, 2014 3:35 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think this is the best answer! i love so much of his music, but i'm still of the mind that a lot of his theorizing is just bull.

I saw him give a lecture/overview of his systems/work, and it suddenly dawned on me that many of his theories just obfuscated the obvious. "Pulse-track logics"? Metric time.

I mean, it works for him, and he seems to get as much (or more) enjoyment out of developing his systems/theories as he does attempting to realize them, so more power to him. I don't think it's bullshit -- he's sincere about it, and I don't think he's doing it as a put-on. But so much of it strikes me as the compositional equivalent of driving from Chicago to Milwaukee via Seattle and Phoenix: yeah, you eventually get where you're going, but you made the journey needlessly burdensome and complicated.

Its definitely not bullshit, but I also often think its simply the way he expresses himself, so what appears to be "needlessly burdensome and complicated" to some is actually a simple A --> B for him. If you don't care to do the work, or you don't have the time then its fine - but that doesn't mean you simply dismiss it as the charlatan side to him.

That's what I was saying; whatever works for him, cool. I wasn't dismissing his methods (though I have noticed a tendency among some critics to become dazzled by the complicated nature of his systems at the expense of any discussion -- or criticism -- of his actual music).

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61MNM09dmUL._SX355_.jpg

anthony braxton - robert schumann quartet

wonderful, thanks massaman gai for another invaluable tip

been spinning "echo echo mirror house" recently as well, which is a challenge cos one long track & people want to watch spiderman on a regular basis in this room. was initially put off by "playing along to ipod collage" aspect but dang if this aint musically cohesive dense & flipin brilliant.

will have to check that schumann quartet one out at some point, the last Braxton I listened to was a fab 70's live duo set with George Lewis which goes from the sublime to the quackers!

"The duo album with Max Roach which came out on Black Saint in '79 (sorry don't have it to hand right now so can't remember the title, but definitely out on CD) is also a good 'un."

replying to an ancient Marcello post - it's called Birth and Rebirth and it is indeed a good 'un!

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/arts/anthony-braxton-composer.html

sometimes in composition no. 254 they sound like they're singing radio station IDs

Be advised that the Braxton Composer Portrait show at the Miller Center 9/25/19 with Either/Or and JACK Quartet is on surreptitious sharing services and it's a decent recording of a great show

I interviewed Marilyn Crispell for Down Beat and we talked about Braxton, obviously.

There's video of a Stockhausen-scale Braxtonathon in Berlin, looks like a great time was had by all

I'd never previously really connected with the man's music, but on a whim the other day I rescued Sextet (Victoriaville) 2005 from the dollar CD bin and I'm really enjoying it. It's a far cry from the brainy and occasionally bloodless music I (perhaps naively) dismissed many years ago. Turns out I may be a fan of Braxton's "ghost trance" era (despite having very little idea what that is in concept). Thinking I should hear more of his later material. Any suggestions?

A friend of mine walked out of his last gig in London! So he's still provocative at least.

Any suggestions?

I remember liking Four Compositions (GTM) 2000, which is on Delmark, quite a bit at the time and, like you, being surprised by how entertaining and fun it was.

Thanks! That's the next one I'll check out. I feel like I'm about to enter a Braxton phase.

Quartet (GTM) 2006 on Important is also a good one from that era.

Also, not Ghost Trance era but if you're unfamiliar with Braxton's 1980s quartet with Marilyn Crispell, Gerry Hemingway and Mark Dresser, check out the Leo Records releases from London and Coventry.

i don't know if it's easy find these days, but graham lock's book forces in motion is a very readable account of that quartet's UK tour in 1985 (lock travelled with them) and also an introduction to braxton's work as a whole, which i think generally squishes the "brainy yet bloodless" perception -- a lot of it is pretty funny as i recall (often at lock's expense).

https://store.doverpublications.com/0486824098.html

^^^apparently an updated edition from a couple of years back

Just found the Lock book for $9 with free shipping, so that's on its way here now.

That Important set looks great, but I may wait a bit before pulling the trigger on a box set.

I see that the Coventry disc (whose reputation precedes it, iirc) was released in full and also in a single-disc version (which of course is less expensive). I may grab the abridged version for now.

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions!

The Lock book is fucking fantastic (reissued last year). It absolutely cracked Braxton's music open for me, just because learning about him as a human being - his weird sense of humor and personality quirks - allowed me to think about what I was hearing in a completely different way.

Braxton's 1980s quartet with Marilyn Crispell, Gerry Hemingway and Mark Dresser

^^^I love this group so much but have had mixed feeling any time I've tried to venture further into Braxton's catalog. Willisau (Quartet) 1991 is probably my favorite but generally just really enjoy everything they did.

^^^ thread revive prompted me to put Willisau on tonight

always preferred the small group stuff before but duos are really working for me atm - recently released one with harpist jacqueline kerrod is great, as are the ones with miya masaoka, fred frith, derek bailey (who I don’t always love), max roach, richard teitelbaum, doubtless plenty more I haven’t heard yet

I feel like his larger scale long form compositions deserve more attention than they get, but they can be intimidating. what I’ve heard from the iridium set is great

it’s pretty shitty the treatment (or lack thereof) he’s received from classical gatekeepers- ditto for bill dixon, cecil taylor, ornette & others - for which i can think of reasons. some of the orchestral stuff I’ve heard could have been better performed/conducted/recorded. he has a right to be bitter about boulez and fucking zappa

the standards are enjoyable enough but don’t blow my mind like some of his other stuff does. maybe they’re not supposed to. idc about “not swinging” or “getting the changes wrong” as some jazz nerds complain but his playing is much more exciting elsewhere imo

Listening to the new Thumbscrew record and got the idea of cross-referencing his discography for multiple interpretations of the same composition...I'm guessing the below is the best resource for that? sadly outdated...

https://www.restructures.net/BraxDisco/BraxDisco.htm

ah.. thanks for the new Thumbscrew album alert, this sounds ace.

Listening to the two duo albums Braxton recorded with Wadada Leo Smith live at Tonic in 2002/2003, Organic Resonance and Saturn, Conjunct the Grand Canyon in a Sweet Embrace.