Does being an "opening act" for a bigger act really provide as much valuable exposure as is assumed?

In an entertainment law seminar tonight happened to briefly talk about the practice of large acts actually charging opening acts to play on tours.

This sort of thing has always rankled me, partly just on a gut level, partly because it seems monopolistic, partly because it bars artists that don't have some kind of cash backing (which, if you're small enough to need to pay to be on a tour, basically means a rich dad).

Aside from that though, I wonder whether the whole idea of touring with the big name act isn't overrated?

It seems like if the matchup is even slightly off and/or the performance is less than mind-blowing, people resent rather than enjoy opening acts. I never ever remember discovering a band this way, and the few times my band got to do it (for single shows, not tours) it wasn't the greatest experience. It'd be interesting to study the subsequent success of acts who open for major acts versus similarly situated acts who don't go that route.

In an entertainment law seminar tonight happened to briefly talk about the practice of large acts actually charging opening acts to play on tours.

gah how common is this? disgusting practice on the face of it.

i always assumed that opening acts put together for big/fairly big tours were just done by labels

I think you're generally right that a good matchup is more important than anything else, and that there's almost an inverse formula going on where the bigger the headliner, the less interested most of the audience is in hearing anybody but that band (see: every story about how thankless a gig it is to open for the Stones).

At the same time, though, having a big captive audience of people who mostly don't know your music is always bound to make at least a few fans, and I know for me personally I can rattle off a dozen bands I love that I first encountered as opening acts.

I never ever remember discovering a band this way

I've lost count of the number of bands that I've discovered this way, eg The Grates opening up for The Yeah Yeahs several years ago.

Or bands that I'm aware of but wouldn't necessarily pony up the cash to see headline their own show, eg Jen Cloher opening for Neko Case a few weeks ago.

Charging opening acts to play though is kinda revolting.

n an entertainment law seminar tonight happened to briefly talk about the practice of large acts actually charging opening acts to play on tours.

gah how common is this? disgusting practice on the face of it.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, February 3, 2010 11:29 PM Bookmark

I don't know. I had heard of it before. The attorney who teaches the seminar made it sound like it was pretty standard in recent years but I didn't get to really quiz him on it or anything.

I think bigger bands do that as a way of financing the tour (bus hire, insurance, anything else that needs to be paid for up front). Still inexcusable though.

can't count the number of times I've gone to a show just to see one of the opening acts

can't count the number of times I've gone to a show just to see one of the opening acts

Sure, but my question is whether an unknown band actually does themselves that much good on a tour with a much bigger band. If you already knew the band they're not gaining you as a fan by playing the tour.

Sometime in the mid 90's I went to see Tool, only beacause the Flaming Lips were opening for them. Fucking Tool fans nearly booed them off the stage. I'm sure they cut their set short.

yeah sorry that was a little off topic - well last week I went to see Andrew Bird, and then this guy walks out on the stage carrying an acoustic with a mike inside wearing a ska-checkered shirt, and starts playing really bad coffee shop dreck. wasn't advertised on the bill. so that peeved me off.

but about encountering new bands in a live setting - I don't really think it's a great opportunity. the performance may not be reflective of the band's CD sound in a number of ways - timing's off, shitty sound, bad setlist, etc.

The only answer your question's ever really going to get is "depends," though.

Utterly OTM

I guess one way of looking at it is by genre. like if you're a ska band opening for a bigger ska band, you'll have a much better chance of making them see the light than if you're a pop punk band opening for a crust punk band?

I have heard of this I think, but I wonder when it would happen. The bigger the headliner, the less they need the opening act's money, and the less chance the opening act could come up with meaningful money anyway, right?

The only answer your question's ever really going to get is "depends," though.

― some dude, Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:02 AM Bookmark

appropriate for a law school question

How much exposure is valuable? What if three people who never heard you before become rabid fans?

Obviously in a pay-to-play situation that sucks, but I'd take anything from making nothing up if I liked the headline. Still pissed at fuckwit bandmate who said no to opening for Damo Suzuki.

I could be totally wrong but I thought Nine Inch Nails did something along these lines?

like, recently? because Reznor has seemed to be generally really enthusiastic and supportive of NIN's opening acts on their more recent big tours, picking bands that he talks about and endorses and giving away little EPs of their music along w/ ticket price.

i have definitely bought cds by opening acts that i'd never heard of before i saw them. one i can think of is johnny dowd opening for the mekons. the gossip opening for sleater-kinney. 10,000 maniacs opening for r.e.m. (and actually, 8 years later, radiohead opening for r.e.m.) the boredoms opening for nirvana. yeah. i mean, the opening act has to actually be good, but i think it can make a difference.

I've never heard of anyone doing pay-to-open, but somehow I'm not surprised. Maybe in the bottom-feeding major label ghetto or something.

I'm friends with two bands who went on tour with bigger acts and in each case they said it was a positive, if not surreal, experience. One band went from small clubs to opening for a shed/small arena headliner and the exposure helped them tremendously (they're super successful now). The second band was called up out of the blue to open some arena dates for Tool (Maynard was a fan of them) and sure the Tool fans are a cranky bunch, but there were times when the crowd was into it.

Ultimately, of course, it all depends. If it happened to my band, I'd be all for it - just for the experience and a chance to hear ourselves play through a good sound system.

i mean, the opening act has to actually be good, but i think it can make a difference

^^^^ Absolutely.

can't count the number of times I've gone to a show just to see one of the opening acts

I've done this many times, especially if the opener wasn't able to tour on their own.

i always assumed that opening acts put together for big/fairly big tours were just done by labels

It's not just labels, but also shared booking agencies and managers.

The only answer your question's ever really going to get is "depends," though.

― some dude, Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:02 AM Bookmark

Or "can't hurt". Unless you have to pay to do it, in which case it most certainly can and is an abhorrent practice. So yeah, "depends".

I think the payment arrangements for supports are all over the place. Of the two musicians I know who've had their own fanbase and went out as support for the first time, well - one did a theatre support for no pay, but for 100% of merch and their own stand; he said they made money on merch cos the audience was the kind of occasional giggers who do get there early and want a souvenir. The second went out on arena support for proper money and because the catering was going to be brilliant; didn't think they won any new fans.

sorry, should specify - arena support and were paid proper money.

I wouldn't ever do pay-to-play, but I have discovered awesome music through supports many times. More often than not I go to gigs for the whole line-up, anyway, regardless of how many acts I already know on the bill.

The only answer your question's ever really going to get is "depends," though.

― some dude, Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:02 AM Bookmark

appropriate for a law school question

― pithfork (Hurting 2), Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:15 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark

Recognize it depends, and then subsequently argue that its as plain as day that there is clearly only one correct answer..... mine.

so it sounds like people are saying yes, it provides valuable exposure if:

1) the opening act is actually good
2) the opening act is well-matched w/ the headliner
3) the opening act's fans are the kind willing to be swayed

ok, but besides opening bands getting exposure - some headlining acts benefit from having popular local/regional bands open for them, to attract a larger audience... no? So yeah, depends...

Only time I'd heard of this before was this story of how the Wrens' first "big booking" was to open for the Fixx, on condition that they personally buy and hawk 175 tickets. It's like the predatory vampire logic of major labels taken to the next obvious level: get the bands to feed on each other. This woman says charging the opener's a semi-common practice & would add to max's list:

4) the opening act's record is already available in stores where the tour lands so they can actually hope to sell some

Shitty support show where you're playing to maybe five people who've never heard you before, four of whom are dicking about with their phones or talking >>>>>> "Headline" show where you're playing to thirty of your mates.

Trying to discourage my friend's band from taking up so many offers of the shitty latter variety but they don't seem to listen.

ok, but besides opening bands getting exposure - some headlining acts benefit from having popular local/regional bands open for them, to attract a larger audience... no? So yeah, depends...

― nothingleft (gravydan), Thursday, February 4, 2010 8:37 AM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah this is totally the case w/ a lot of really small venues, at least around here -- clubs will book one or two unknown out-of-town bands that may or may not have a single fan in town, then pair them with one or two local bands that are sure to bring along their own crowd so that the touring band actually gets an audience.

3) the opening act's fans are the kind willing to be swayed

ya, and this seems (excuse my judgmentalism) increasingly unlikely as we get into the territory of it maybe seeming worth paying to support someone for exposure. I looked up some Coldplay supports and I haven't been stunned by the subsequent success of Eugene Francis Jnr and the Juniors or The Domino State, tbh. Really, I would like an example of this happening to see if I can get my head around it more.

Being superior to the scummy fans of popular bands I've obv seen plenty of support slots that got me into a band.

there are totally tons of examples of bands that got big right around the time they got a sweet opening spot on a major tour, but it's hard to cite those like they're cold hard facts since those bands are so big now that their popularity seems like an inevitability that those tours had nothing to do with helping create

it can also make a difference how much the headliner is into the opener. when the headliner chooses the opener because it's somebody they really like and then boosts them (shout-outs, maybe bringing the singer out for a guest spot during the headliners' set) it can really sway a crowd. when i saw the gossip open for s-k, it escaped no one's attention that corin and carrie were right in the middle of the audience during the gossip set, filming it with a camcorder and jumping up and down and cheering.

(and of course you're less likely to get that kind of moral support if it's just a pay-to-play gig.)

I looked up some Coldplay supports and I haven't been stunned by the subsequent success of Eugene Francis Jnr

I vaguely know this band and I believe they got it off the back of being old (like late teenage) friends of C. Martin, rather than anyone being willing or able to fund them to the degree you'd presumably need to to buy onto a Coldplay tour. Obviously they are or were still a very very boring band (game recognise game etc)

In 'American Hardcore', the book, there's a bit where it says that Motorhead approached Black Flag to support them on a US tour, as they were fans, but still wanted them to pay $25,000 for the privilege

somebody recently tried to sell me a slot opening for B.G. for $350 ----- seen a lot of rap shows here in Austin, sometimes they're so empty I'm wondering how the headliner gets paid ---- now I know ----

can't blame em really, I guess other people's dreams of makin it is one of the few income streams that hasn't dried up -----

after all aspiring musicians are also music fans right?? and they probably ain't gonna spend $$ on your record anymore --

kinda like being an opening act is a VIP ticket to the show or something ----

if i understand it correctly, the violent femmes entire career was based on chrissie hynde of the pretenders seeing them busking on the street before her show, saying to herself: "hey, these guys are GREAT lets let them open for us at the arena tonight" and things snowballing from there

don't suppose it happens like that very often though...

All the second stage acts on tours like Ozzfest, Mayhem Festival etc. have paid to be there. I think the buy-in for Ozzfest is something like $75,000.

interesting thread. title kind of sounds like a hipster runoff blog entry tho

I would say this depends on what kind of fanbase the act you support has, and also the act's interest in its own support act. Being a support act is largely a tough job because the audiences are waiting for what they came there for. However, if they are openminded and not just fanatical fans, they may also pay attention to the support act if the support act isn't completely different from their fave act.

Some acts have a more fanatic following than others, and I would suppose being an opening act for, say, Kiss or Rush may be a tough job.

the violent femmes entire career was based on chrissie hynde of the pretenders seeing them

Chrissie Hynde, yesterday:

http://addictedtovinyl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/James-Honeyman-Scott-BW.jpg

Van Halen blew up because they blew the doors off Ted Nugent's live band on their first opening arena tour. Granted, they were Van Halen.

honestly had no idea bands payed bigger bands to get an opening spot. how fucked up.

or get paid something real slim. like getting paid $100 to open for a "big band" playing for 1000+ people. even if that band is your "friends" and maybe even if you're on their "label"

One of the more depressing gigs I attended was Sleater-Kinney opening for Pearl Jam in '02. Their dynamics are lost in an amphitheatre setting; in addition the crowd was comprised of total louts, epitomized by the dickwad with the lon ghai rin fron tof me who said, "Who're the dikes?"

"Who're the dikes?"

As opposed to what I would've said, which is "Who is this horrible fucking band, and what fucking crime did I commit to wind up at a Pearl Jam show?"

the dickwad with lon ghai rin fron tof me

At first, I'm reading this and wondering "What in god's name is a lon ghai rin?"

For some reason I'd always naively assumed the opening-slot "payment" was usually AT LEAST done in some kind of subtle, back-door, management/label/agency kind of way (bargains struck, quids pro quos, funds and "investments," etc.) -- not just asking the band for a price up front. Shows what I know.

At first, I'm reading this and wondering "What in god's name is a lon ghai rin?"

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, February 4, 2010 7:47 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

me too, sounds like a cambodian dish or something

I didn't notice the rin, but I did look up lon ghai. It didn't help. Thankfully I stopped being an idiot.

Tom Kha Gai soup though... lovely.

(see: every story about how thankless a gig it is to open for the Stones).

is this true?

This thread reminds of the live disc on the recent Big Star box set where the band are opening for Archie Bell and the Drells and the audience audibly doesn't give a fuck. Slightly depressing.

xp Kasabian were the support on the last Stones tour (certainly in the UK, not sure abt elsewhere) and I read a bunch of stuff about how the Stones had no idea who they were and wouldn't let them talk to them etc - this presumably coupled w/ being on when everyone is queueing for their paper cups of beer etc

Slayer are pretty much the benchmark for crowd who make disinterest in the support into an art - I don't get the impression that their crowds are demonstrably more rabid in their fandom than other metal bands' but at some point it became a meme to shout SLAYER all the way through the support

the big legendary story about opening for the Stones was that Prince got booed opening for them in the early '80s, but I feel like I've seen several acts talk about how their audiences are usually hostile or indifferent to openers and that mainly you take the gig just to say you opened for the Stones

Iggy Pop was apparently also booed off the stage opening for the Stones. So was Meredith Brooks, which is a bit more understandable.

But shouldn't it be pretty much the same deal opening for the Stones as it is for pretty much any other big-name arena rock acts, like U2, Coldplay, Springsteen, etc.? Unless they charge a higher fee, or something.

that do you mean same deal? I wasn't saying the Stones charge people to open for them (they might, but I haven't heard of it and for some reason I doubt it). I was just using them of an example of how a band can get a gig opening for a huge band and not win any new fans.

that do you mean = what do you mean

At first, I'm reading this and wondering "What in god's name is a lon ghai rin?

It's Laotian for "mullet."

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, he always tells the truth.

fwiw, the crowd seemed to really like Living Colour when I saw them open for the Stones on the Steel Wheels tour.

Ah, but Mick Jagger produced tracks on that album! LC had the band's seal of approval.

I'm not sure how much the audience knew about that, though. Certainly the press made it clear but this was a stadium show and in Atlanta no less; how many of them read the papers? (That's mostly sarcastic.) In any case "Cult of Personality" was already a huge single, and I think Jagger came prancing out during "Glamour Boys", though I'm not 100% sure that wasn't a dream.

It's Laotian for "mullet."

hahahahaha

Does anyone know: how is it decided when a band has an opening act that tours w/them verses having some local act from every spot on the tour open for them? I've found a lot of new bands I liked when a band has an opening act that tours w/them, but I've never found love for a local band that got scrounged up to play before the show. The worst example of this was when some generic coffeeshop acoustic open-mic type guy opened for Sleepytime Gorilla Museum in Boise. I happen to know how that one happened, tho – he was the husband of the lady who booked them. Nils still went out of his way to congratulate the guy & say, "Pick up his CD, he's been very gracious" but I think that is bcz they are probably one of the fan-friendliest and politest groups this side south of Andrew W.K.

Well it seems it worked out just fine for Kraftwerk and Sigur Ros when they were opening acts for Radiohead.

Isn't the deal on those Ozzfests that all of the smaller bands pretty much either had to pay or get no pay to be on that tour?

But shouldn't it be pretty much the same deal opening for the Stones as it is for pretty much any other big-name arena rock acts, like U2, Coldplay, Springsteen, etc.?

Never had the misfortune of seeing U2 or Coldplay, but whenever I've seen Springsteen he's never had a support act. Doesn't believe in them, apparently. With his own shows running 3hrs plus, there isn't time for one anyway.

Peter Hammill is another one who doesn't do support acts. Back in 1983, for some unfathomable reason, he chose to accept an offer from Hammill fan Fish to open for Marillion. He got booed for his trouble.

Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark got hugely valuable exposure by supporting Gary Numan on his first headline tour. It's always rankled with him – rightly in my view – that they've never acknowledged this debt to him.

I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't there something about Sonic Youth, when they were opening for Neil Young...his soundmen wouldn't give them full volume during their set, so they were kind of automatically blown off the stage by Young. Who was a fan of them, to be sure...

Yep! There's more detail here...from SY's perspective mostly. http://www.thrasherswheat.org/jammin/sonic_youth_noise.htm

As far as general thread topic: first time I ever saw Drive By Truckers was when they were opening for the Black Crowes. Hardly anyone in the audience, but the people who were there were NUTS for the DBT's (ie on their feet for the very first song, sang every word, etc etc), and it was their enthusiasm that made me hang around to see what the big deal was. Glad I did. Found out about Dead Confederate when they opened for the Truckers a couple of years ago here in Sacramento. I really think it does provide good exposure...not tons, but if you're good enough you might get a few new fans in each city. Those small numbers add up.

"I really think it does provide good exposure...not tons, but if you're good enough you might get a few new fans in each city. Those small numbers add up."

word. there's always a few music nerds who come to check out the opening act (like, maybe even a thousand!) that it's probably worth the indifference/hostility of everyone else... specially since it's those opening act checker outers that are buying 10 albums for every one the lon ghai rin mullethead dude buys...

Hoe boy. The old "buy-on" trick. It's actually shockingly routine, not so much with really big bands with those middling-level bands that still need some up-front cash injection to get them on a proper headline tour.

Usually support bands are matched by sharing a record company or management - but don't assume there hasn't been a buy-on even if they do share. (Even if it's books-fiddling of moving money from one account to another. So much of the money shuttled around at major labels doesn't actually exist, it's "to be recouped" and added to the band's bill.)

Does being a support act provide valuable exposure? If your music is compatible and the fanbase likely to overlap, hell yeah. We sold more CDs on 2 dates of a big-name tour than our record company sold officially through distribution channels (well, according to their books, that is.) But that wasn't a buy-on, that was a friends of a friend that invited us to do it.

xpost to Anagram - I saw Hammill supporting Marillion. I was just a kid. Was bored shitless (as was entire crowd). Rather suspect I'd find him infinitely preferable if I attended the same show now.