Best album evuh

Sorry.

Does anyone care?

there?

Leone on Brian Wilson: 'hard to tell if he actually was a little unstable, or just lazy and eccentric. ..he would show up to the studio, fart around, be generally difficult to deal with, maybe dis some current chart act, and then go out to get something to eat. And then the next day, he'd come in and everything would be great, and he'd want to work. '

Sounds like depression to me. Any medical experts out there?

Also, from what I've heard, this behaviour is that of the '70s/'80s Wilson - the post Pet Sounds release Brian. Did he behave like that in, say, 1964?

The passing of the mantle of "Best Album Ever" from Sgt. Pepper's to Pet Sounds is easy to explain:

1) Rock critics feel the need to demonstrate their superior knowledge to the record-buying masses.

2) Everybody already knew that Sgt. Pepper's was the best album ever, besides the Beatles were too popular anyway, so the critics needed to find a more obscure replacement.

3) McCartney had admitted that he was "influenced" by Pet Sounds in making Sgt. Pepper's.

4) Rock critics agree that "influence" is the defining measure of any album.

Therefore, by unassailable logic:

Pet Sounds is the best album ever.

Of course it remains blindingly obvious to everyone except for rock critics that Sgt. Pepper's is light-years better than Pet Sounds, but that is inconsequential.

Also, from what I've heard, this behaviour is that of the '70s/'80s Wilson - the post Pet Sounds release Brian. Did he behave like that in, say, 1964?

Not in studio, if reports are to be believed. By most accounts, he was something of a workaholic, and a charismatic leader when laying down tracks. The only times I read about him acting strange in studio pre-Pet Sounds were when he and his dad would start fighting or something.

And re: LSD -- I'm sure this was part of it. I don't actually know how much he did. He talks about his first trip being something of a "religious experience", but I don't know if he was still doing it in the late 60s and 70s or not. I believe he was into cocaine in the 70s, but as far as I'm concerened, the drugs were probably a side- effect of general depression (as mentioned above), and deeply rooted emotional issues. Also, I think "crazy" is perhaps off the mark -- I don't believe Brian Wilson has ever been diagnosed with any particular mental affliction (unlike, say, Daniel Johnston). Please chime in if I'm wrong there.

4) Rock critics agree that "influence" is the defining measure of any album.

Think again, Nate, you're on ILM.

Three months after Pet Sounds Brian & the boys tossed out an LP consisting of two hit singles (re-recordings, IIRR) and nine ou- takes/pieces of stuff they had hanging around in the studio. And it is still several times better than Sgt. Pepper's...

Re: Smiley Smile -- This is the Pinkerton of the 60s! Weezer fans go nuts for that record, so WHY DON'T *MOST* BEACH BOYS FANS DO THE SAME ABOUT SMILEY SMILE? And on another topic, are Weezer basically the Beach Boys of the 90s/00s (except not as popular)?

Think again, Nate, you're on ILM.

I realize that it's dangerous to make any blanket statements about rock critics on a board as densely populated with critics as ILM. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule - and many of them post on this board. However, I still believe that the notion that Pet Sounds influenced Sgt. Pepper's is a key element (perhaps unconsciously) in the justification for Pet Sounds' importance. At some level, people think: "Well, it influenced Sgt. Pepper's, so it has to be good." The notion of "influence" has a built-in bias that privileges the influencer over the influencee. I think the question of what is the best album ever becomes more interesting when you leave "influence" out of the picture.

o-nate i could kiss you

Thanks, mark, it's nice to be appreciated. "o. nate: keeping the world safe from scurrilous influence-talk since 2002" But seriously, it's hard to think what a Best Album contest that didn't consider influence would even look like. It would force people to find whole new reasons to justify the quality of an album.

Anyone who doubts whether Brian Wilson has mental problems has obviously never seen the Theremin documentary, wherein there is a 5- minute long Wilson monologue, which starts as a discussion of the use of the theremin in Good Vibrations, but ends up somewhere and nowhere else. He goes off on tangent after tangent into digression with no obvious point. Also, he allowed Pet Sounds Live to be released. He's crazy, people!

4) Rock critics agree that "influence" is the defining measure of any album.
I always thought lack of utter suckitude is a better measure of quality or "worth"

that's quite hard to believe lord custos, we have all seen what records you like!!

(Thanks to Nate I now understand the reasoning behind Mark's anti- influence position. I think I needed to triangulate between two versions of it to wholly agree.)

It would force people to find whole new reasons to justify the quality of an album.

What reason do you need other than you like it a lot? I see where you're going with your point about influence but I have to question what seems to be an assumption that we're all collectively basing our individual loves and hates on that as a core criteirion.

OK, then let's talk about why Pet Sounds *isn't* the best album of all time (though not necessarily about what is).

My view:
1. It is anticlimactic. Brian wanted to make a teenage symphony to god, and even though he was working his ass off in this, after it was finished, it was almost a foregone conclusion that his greatest moment was yet to come.

2. One of the things always attributed to Pet Sounds is its "revolutionary production techniques" (TM). And yet, "Tomorrow Never Knows" is arguably more revolutionary than any song on Pet Sounds, especially if you look at how production methods have developed over the years with regard to electronics and synthetic sound manipulation.

3. Another great strengh attributed to Pet Sounds is the songwriting. Again, when you look at the trend in pop over the last 30 years, it isn't towards better and better songs, but better and better packaging and production. Therefore, Pet Sounds' two greatest strengths can be seen as (1) second-rate (work with me here), or (2) tangential/irrelevant.

Sure, some of this devil's advocate. I happen to love the record. Just not as the best ever.

I think it's silly to credit Brian Wilson or Pet Sounds with pioneering "the use of the recording studio as an instrument" or whatever phrase people like to throw about. For one thing, Phil Spector did it first, and he did it more successfully. Perhaps Phil Spector was too professional to be considered a true auteur, whereas Brian Wilson's eccentricities and personal failings made him endearing.

nabisco there is no such thing as BEHIND

i thought the best alb ever was derek bailey's 'Aida' actually.

I thought the best rock banjo album of all time was the Monks' Black Monk Time.

nabisco there is no such thing as BEHIND

What is this assless universe you live in, Mr. Sinker?

turn around and it is not there = it is not there

What if you don't turn around?

Alright...Sgt. Pepper is incredible, but incredible like Citizen Kane...more for its technique/style/originality than anything. As for Pet Sounds, not even one of the best 100. The Beach Boys were posers pushed into the role as Surfies by unscrupulous management. Sure, Brian Wilson was a genius in his own weird way, but incoherently so in a Syd Barrett/Roky Erikson kinda way. I mean, the Beach Boys will be remembered for what timeless song...Barbara Ann? Good Vibrations? Please!! Best ever is one of:

Stones "Let it Bleed" Beatles "Rubber Soul" (Don't get the Revolver hype...it has at least 2 pretty bad songs Dylan "Bringing It All Back Home"

But even these 3 change weekly from, say, Bringing It.... to Hwy 61 so its a trick question.

I'm baffled by this thread. When did Pet Sounds pull a Godfather on Citizen Kane/Sgt. Pepper?

I'd also like to see an example of "the title" ever being ceded to What's Going On (the Sgt. Pepper of black America, to be sure). If it ever was, I doubt a lowered intake of THC had anything to do with it: That's a stoner opus.

I guess I'm wondering, what is all this based on?

At this point in my life, no album can compare to my virtual soundtracks/mixtapes (except maybe _Pornography_ and _Parade_).

are/were the smiths "indie"??

inasmuch as their label (Rough Trade) was, i suppose

Godz II is the best album ever recorded, and I won't hear otherwise.

PROJECT

Regarding "Smiley Smile", I'd rather compare it to "Opel", "Sketches For My Sweetheart, The Drunk" or "The Cry Of Love" than to "Pinkerton". It's a bunch of unfinished stuff thrown together in a haste. And he even left off several of the best "Smile" tracks, with classics such as "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" showing up on "20/20" and "Surf's Up" on the album with the same name instead.

Plz to resume K. Shields/chinchilla conversation, thanks.

Perhaps Phil Spector was too professional to be considered a true auteur, whereas Brian Wilson's eccentricities and personal failings made him endearing.

Spector has really caught up.

I prefer Smiley Smile/Wild Honey to Pet Sounds. Particularly for Wild Honey.