can christian music really be alternative?

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds?

The Coup rubbed me the wrong way in the same way Christian pop does. Ideology over sound, message over pleasure, not my thing. Same problem.

the xtianpop crowd needs a little WWJRWH: What Would Jesus Really Wanna Hear?

Cue me and my lyrical stance. ;-)

eric matthews

...is a fucking homophobic prick. As for his music, it aims for Scott Walker but makes Billy Joel's 'classical' work seem like Schoenberg.

My response to the original question: I don't know what "alternative" means in that sentence, and only the slightest clue as to what "Christian music" might be. If "Christian music" means music that tries to spread the Christian dharma, and "alternative" means (as it looks like it might) "creative music", then the answer is yes, and there are many, many examples.

I think we should remember that we're talking about pop music. Pop is not an experience in pure sound, and it was never meant to be. It has always been about lyrics, image, attitude just as much as it is about pure sound. Pop is a package - and people usually buy the package because they like the elements that make it up. So it seems a bit disingenuous to me to suggest that people should just listen to the "sound" and ignore the lyrical content. There's plenty of music out there without any lyrics for people who are interested in that kind of approach, but pop satisfies a different taste, and it's not unreasonable for someone to expect the lyrical content to enhance, rather than detract from, their experience of the music.

As mentioned up-thread the christian music industry is a entire bizarro alternate UNIVERSE, complete with boy bands and videos and even "punks"----PUNKS!! It's one of the only instances where the term makes any sense at all. They make videos like those cheapo imported knock-off toys you'd sometimes get as a kid that looked like the ones you wanted but there was something distinctly not right about them, something vaguely shabby (maybe "alternative" applies to Canada too, come to think of it). This documentary, is an interesting (and/or very creepy) look at the christian music scene; youth groups, mosh pits, svengalis and all.

A better example of "alternative" Christian Music might be 16 Horsepower....themselves heavily influenced by Cave.

I think you're talking about just "alternative" (one word) here, which I take to mean "alternative rock". But there are different types of music that are given the label "alternative", as I mentioned earlier. For example, alternative country. Presumably, this is not what the kids on the Real World listen to either (although I never watch the show, so maybe they do). In any case, if you define "alternative" by what plays on MTV, then yes, I agree with you, Christian music will never be alternative - because that's a niche market that MTV doesn't try to cover. Perhaps, with the ongoing expansion of cable bandwidth and increasing TV market segmentation, there will soon be a "Christian MTV", but until then, Christian music is bereft of that sort of mainstream cultural affirmation.

yeah st. Paul was kinda homophobic too. I just listed him cos he's Xtian and "alternative". Re your opinions on his music, I think you're wrong but whatever whatever whatever whatever.

There is of course also a counter movement who just see him as poisonously right wing (which I believe he probably is).

Personally speaking, as a survivor of fourteen years of ridiculous Catholic education, I'd really like to think God has better things to do with his or her time than be offended by someone spelling out their name.

To quote Cathal Coughlin of the late, lamented Fatima Mansions: KEEP MUSIC EVIL!

I'll repeat myself: CCMers and the Coup make music that is subservient to their message as true believers, a trait which I don't like because, imo, it renders the experience of hearing that message as music pointless.

But then you chide me for saying that singing is bad and everyone should ignore it.

Maybe you wanna try again? Or just shut it?

"I thus conclude that a band's religious leanings need not be a problem if they have the tunes" Exaaactly. Having the spirit solve the problems of art for you. If you think it will, you're twice as lost.

alexnyc: "X" is the first letter of "Christ" in Greek. That's why we write "Xmas." It's just shorthand, tho most don't know why.

Sure, it could be that Coltrane's less denominational "spiritual" thing is more acceptable to a not very religious person like myself, but I think it is definitely a case (as other people have mentioned) of message before music that puts me off about Christian music. In the case of Coltrane, at the very least the message and music are inseperable, and if religion inspired him to make such powerful music, great. Also, it certainly wasn't a response to 'non-Christian jazz', as seems to be the case with much of the stuff out there now.

And that's why I love Venom.

"What about reggae? Christianity galore."

Well, Rastafarianism isn't exactly hardline, orthodox Christianity, now is it.

''Personally speaking, I'm *IMMEDIATELY* repelled by anything that's as upfront about its agenda like that -- as it suggests that the message is more important than the medium.''

Public enemy were upfront. Most of the grunge, punk, gangsta rap...they all had a message. you don't like because that 'message' isn't 'cool' enough with you.

''I'm not put off by devotional music of other faiths, like, say Bhangra, but for some reason I'm really skeezed out by people trying to push Jesus in my face like fuckin' Crusaders. Rock music is the DEVIL's music. Let's keep it that way.''

Devotional music is classified as 'world music' (not good i know). And sorry to spoil your fun but rock music is a piece of garbage right now.

I like the fact they are upfront about it. but are they any good anyway? I'd enjoy it if there was a really fantastic rock band who were devout christians.

Low are great for insatnce. And they are far better than any of the alternative crown. A band with their own sound. great music, it's the new 'alternative' ppl.

The difference is that those respective messages (P.E., grunge, punk, etc.) weren't utterly mindless and based on a faith whose foundations are built on fear, intollerance, guilt and ignorance (i.e. Christianity.)

"And sorry to spoil your fun but rock music is a piece of garbage right now."

Well, that is your opinion, Julio, though I'll agree that 90% of what passes today for "rock" is sub-par. That said, I wasn't talking about striclty new rock music. I don't stop listening to music just because it's no longer new or "cool."

I don't want to rule-out the theory of a really blazing, blindingly good band who are wildly original and also HAPPEN to be Christians, but I just find it unlikely when their first priority isn't their music, but rather spreading "the gospel."

but do these bands promote such attitudes. they might not be like that as ppl, you know. and what if the music is good? are you just going to ignore it.

yeah, most of grunge, gangsta rap and punk were kind of mindless. a lot of it came across as cartoonish/just entertainment and so on (some good things came off punk, by all accounts).

Groups that DO identify as evangelical christians make their message IMPOSSIBLE to ignore. The message IS more important than the music, there's nothing merely suggested there. The music is more and more often just an approximation of what The Kids are listening to, with christian lyrics. In terms of "marketing" (sorry mark s) that may not make it much different from any other branch of youth-oriented music. What makes the term alternative far more suited to them is their Ever-Unhipness, as evidenced all over this thread. Their bound-to-not-get-you-laid dogma combined with the fact that they are self-proclaimed players of catch-up WITH the mainstream also means that they will NEVER BE CO-OPTED, making them indestructably alternative forever. so really Plus One makes Nirvana circa "Bleach" look like N*Sync. i.e. there is always someone more square than you and THEY, not you, get to be the "alternative" ones.

the 'rock music is garbage' means that all this alternative stuff is meaningless and therefore it does not matter whether christians are alternative or not.

''Groups that DO identify as evangelical christians make their message IMPOSSIBLE to ignore. The message IS more important than the music, there's nothing merely suggested there.''

if i listen to music then i listen to the sound, I can't register lyrics...but again, I believe if there is a christian band that sound good then surely the lyrics will not matter so much.

If you're interested enough to track down their out-of-print albums, then I'd recommend Breakfast With Amy. This link will show you one place to start looking.

all range from good to very good. all christians.

Starflyer 59 Joy Electric Havalina Rail Co. Lassie Foundation

All of these bands make (or made) truly unique music that is largely unappreciated because they are on a "Christian" record label. Please do yourself a favor and check out any of these artists.

I originally posted them in a vertically descending arrangment ...

I also like the title of a record by some band I can't remember from Toronto, it's called "Christian metal = Nazi Raggae."

Zao get heaps of shit for their broad pro-life stance, as well they might.

1. "Alternative" to what?!?!?!
2. Do you actually want the alternative?!?!?!?!

Re: The message vs the music, I reckon if you're not particularly reglious, even the best stuff's going to sound like someone passionately singing about the traffic system in Newton Mearns!!!!! Either that, or they're musicians which just happen to be Christian, and make one or two not-really-in-your-face references in their songs, in which case, the issue of their Christianity is a bit more like being told someone you've known for years goes to the toilet in slightly unorthodox manner!!!!!

Nor can Low really. Though it is undeniable that some of their music is inspired by their beliefs. For me - Xn rock is defined by evangelism, whereas when interviewed, Low are reluctant to elaborate on their faith. In reponse to the question though, the message conveyed in "If you were Born Today" counts as pretty much alternative to your average song of praise.

for what it's worth, i'm a practising catholic, have never heard any modern pop/rock/rap (love classical and gospel though) christian music (in the sense that it sets out to be quite clearly evangelical, not in the Low sense) that doesn't suck, and don't really care. given that i believe jesus died for ian curtis too, i see no need to confine my listening to delerious.

by the way, why hasn't jars of clay been mentioned yet for being the dullest band on earth?

16 Horsepower lyrics read like a sermon, and are delivered by a fire and brimstone preacher. I don't think there can be any debate over them.

Danielson Famile are pretty overtly Xian over most of their output (although I think less noticeably as the albums progress, "Fetch The Compass Kids" is the least so) and at times are the best band in the world. I only wish they came to Britain more...

So I'd think Christian music (like any other religious music) would be 'alternative' by definition. It's like a whole other pop world. If a band sells out some huge venue and I've never heard of them or read anything about them, there's 99.9% chance they're a Christian band who are huge in a whole other 'mainstream' that hasn't really touched the genuine mainstream.

The Velvet Underground - Jesus
Bob Dylan - the "born again" years

Check the drop down menu for styles.
Anyone know any of the bands apart from Damien Jurado and Further Seems Forever? http://www.sleeby.com/search_result.asp?genre_id=8

1/ Every song must have a clear open confession that

Jesus Christ is LORD and God
The Holy Spirit is LORD and God
God the Father is LORD and God

If this is not clear in your songs then all you are doing is entertaining just like pubs, beer, drugs and sex. How can I say this . I have been there until my LORD brought me out.

2/ As I said all lyrics must be clear. It is no use rocking out (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) if the lyrics cannot be heard clearly by the audience/congregation.

Example: WHITECROSS is one of the best christian metal bands I have heard. They are full on yet 1/all lyrics are clear and easy to understand. 2/ besides not being afraid to confess their LORD their lyrics are firmly grounded in Biblical Scriptures.

No Christian musician should compromise their work or be afraid to confess their LORD. These rulz are simple but require guts.

I talked abour metal coz that takes it to the Xtreme. Having said that all styles are accepted before our LORD because music is a universal language and there are way to many people judging over this matter. If its rock that comes out of your heart and you give it to the LORD then that excellent, if it's rap that comes from your heart and you give it to the LORD - AWSOME, if it is blues ,latin, classical....etc you get the drift. IF YOU ARE SINCERELY GIVING IT TO THE LORD AND NOT JUST PARTYING AROUND THEN NO ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO JUDGE Don't get me wrong the LORD doesn't mind you partying AS LONG AS YOU INVITE HIME TOO AND KEEP HIM WITH YOU.

Seeya Guyz
Any further questions, abuse, insults, death threats, kisses, hugs etc hit the email.

PS Not many people will like this but the greatest songs ever written were (No not Stairway to Heaven - who said that)

1/ The Psalms: By Israel's greatest king King David
2/ The old Hymns: By men and woman who feared God.

Today we sing about I love Jesus and the devil's gonna die (so what. That is shallow we know all that).

The Psalms and the Hymns sing about I luv Jesus alright but they also sing about His death, His burial, His Ressurrection, His Coming also His Mercy His Judgement, Faith ane the Holy Spirit.

If yr looking for a long lost 90s Sub Pop masterpiece, check out Mike Ireland! Great countrypolitan! I bet he's christian too!

Backwards masking!

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/07/arts/churchspan2.jpg

awes

that "c-rock" page Geir posted is awesome. i haven't seen anything like that since i was a kid, reading books about satanic music (i learned about a lot of bands that later became my favorites in those books).

i love how totally obsessed with imagery they think everyone is:

On the back of Smith's album The Big Picture, is Michael W. Smith — BACKWARDS! A common satanic practice, taught by satanist Aliester Crowley (Crowley is very popular in the rock music world).

The Daniel Band's logo is a satanic lightning bolt (Luke 10:18 Jesus says, And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.) the same as satanic rockers: KISS, AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Slayer and others.

the guilt by association is great, too. jars of clay covered crazy train! the same guy that did the video for closer did dc talk's video!

you just can't win sometimes.

now i have michael w. smith's "goin' through the motions" song stuck in my head. i used to like that album. was one of the only christian rock albums my youth pastor tried to shove down my throat as a kid that i actually liked.

thanks for that entertaining link.

Messiaen, Sofiya Gubaydulina...

Galina Ustvolskaya.

Mysticism is only justified when it serves an aesthetic purpose. :)