White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

0.1 thousands

Grrrrr...fuckin' Ian MacKaye.

let's just agree on millions of shows and call it a day

Discussing Nietzsche in a college German class led to some amazing lols for me, particularly when the conversation veered towards a discussion of selfishness and altruism and I took the position that no one chooses of their own volition to be altruistic because the emotional reward from volunteerism/helping others makes them selfish acts.

People also didn't like it when I kept telling them that, when talking about the Uebermensch, Nietzsche was talking about us.

first line is a classic philosophy 101 challop.

It was a tense class but oh so worth it when the girl who was doing volunteer programs got super mad because she wouldn't let go of "selfish = bad" in an academic conversation divorced from reality.

found this on a mixtape me and lhgoo made in 1986 where everything seemed permissible
plus th record was a dollar at Caldor
and goo had just won lotto
i think we thought wanna be black and black girls by violent femmes and all that fake tranxgression stuff was funny
we were 22
no excuse
and now that my gf is black i dont get away with anything anymore

John Cale - Wilson Joliet
She was so afraid of everything she said
Since her mother told her why once upon a time
There was no rhyme
Before the clock slammed another door
Of the weary hours we were facing a second hand shylock
Shylocked in, in on us

I saw what it had taken
Playing back that old brigade of mine
Everything was dirty, everything was without rhyme
Everything was dirty, everything was without rhyme
Cause me and nigger marched
Yes, me and nigger blasted our way out
Of here just like yesterday

Yesterday's streets were burnt down into shells
Mothers weep while children sleep
Like ancestors in the ground
The misery of nuns lie together like sons
Who do not have the taste for the battle

We are shuffled like a pack of cards in the dead of night
Like lovers below Bataan, below the senses
Cause the senses smell of tears
While we and nigger marched
Blasted our way out of here
Close the door and let's have some private life

"no one chooses of their own volition to be altruistic because the emotional reward from volunteerism/helping others makes them selfish acts."

I volunteered for some pretty unrewarding stuff -- wouldn't necessarily call it altruistic, but in order to be selfish, they would have had to be rewarding on some level and they weren't.
Do you think the girl was mad for trivializing her drudgery, or making it seem like volunteers were help-junkies addicted to helpahol?

what intellectuals are holding ian mackaye in high esteem??!

all the Continental philosophers are nuts about Repeater

they recognize a fuckin jam when they parse one

I volunteered for some pretty unrewarding stuff -- wouldn't necessarily call it altruistic, but in order to be selfish, they would have had to be rewarding on some level and they weren't.
Do you think the girl was mad for trivializing her drudgery, or making it seem like volunteers were help-junkies addicted to helpahol?

― Philip Nunez

the standard argument is that ostensible altruists gain personal (emotional/ego) & social benefits that they seek in a self-interested manner even as they help others. for example, the sense that they are "doing the right thing."

this argument tends to piss people off because, A.) it's smug, and B.) it tricks people into defending positions that they don't actually hold (e.g., that it is possible to be entirely unselfish, or that altruism's moral precepts are invalidated if any conceivable benefit accrues to the altruist).

I do kind of hold B) though -- not to the extent that an altruistic enterprise is invalid, but it sure taints it a little. It's pretty disheartening to look up stats on a charity and see personnel drawing hefty salaries (though it's probably a lebron james situation where they bring in more $ to the franchise than they earn)

Hey, let's talk about how Siegel and Shuster (Jews!) created Superman as a Nietzsche-inspired supervillain until true Nietzsche-inspired supervillain Hitler made explicit the notion of the ubermensch, causing Siegel and Shuster to switch their selfish supermensch into a selfless supermensch for good!

What was this thread about again?

if you want to discuss salary issues with charities ... let's not do it in this thread.

I do kind of hold B) though -- not to the extent that an altruistic enterprise is invalid, but it sure taints it a little. It's pretty disheartening to look up stats on a charity and see personnel drawing hefty salaries (though it's probably a lebron james situation where they bring in more $ to the franchise than they earn)

― Philip Nunez

well, there's a lot of wiggle room in the gap between "any conceivable benefit" and "a salary in the high sixes."

but what sarah said

the entire point of the altruism/selfishness argument is to defend the idea that self-interest and selfishness aren't inherently bad concepts, not to defend the idea that altruism is evil; it should be okay and in fact encouraged to selfishly do things that help other people because um you are helping other people

The "altruism is selfish" line is actually sort of a well-meaning commonplace in the U.S., isn't it? Or rather, it's basically a commonplace to say that a rewarding emotional life involves helping others, or that the solution to your own soul problems is going to involve doing something for someone else. (I don't know if that actually benefits altruism or not, though, since it can also sort of compartmentalize it to a point where you're vigorously self-interested in your personal dealings and then go volunteer at a shelter twice a week.)

Isn't the biological argument that societies/packs/gaggles, etc...w/o 'unselfishness' are more prone to disaster than those that have a modicum thereof?

so i guess having successfully unpacked the use of the n-word by artists were going to handle the paradox of altruism now?

yeah we're basically the new university of frankfurt

well when people say they volunteer and stuff because "it makes them feel good" there ya go right there. i used to think the genealogy of morals by FN was the bomb when i was younger. i should re-read it.

my brother in law has a big problem with the golden rule. um, for what that's worth. i remember having an argument about it with him.

I did it all for the nookie

the entire point of the altruism/selfishness argument is to defend the idea that self-interest and selfishness aren't inherently bad concepts, not to defend the idea that altruism is evil; it should be okay and in fact encouraged to selfishly do things that help other people because um you are helping other people

― emo WINNER! (HI DERE), Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:29 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmarkthat's true, but i've also heard it used to establish moral equivalence between ostensibly selfless and obviously selfish acts. like, "there is nothing uniquely wrong with egregious selfishness, because everyone is basically selfish, even people who seem or claim to be acting altruistically. it's all the same, and no one can claim the moral high ground, because everybody's just doing what they want." and while logically sound, i think that argument is BS on a moral level. it's simple nihilism, and it's often presented with a smug smirk - not that i'm accusing you of smugness.

it's interesting the way that capitalism has incorporated altruism as a sales pitch

:/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyK3RoDYZPg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-z-mQyvkO4

"This is about ARTISTIC use, so keep shit like Skrewdr1ver and Dav1d Allen C0e"

Why is it that racism can't be artistic? Like "hate" is some inert dark matter that can't have anything to do with real art. Is "Black Korea" somehow "more artistic" than 5kr3\/\/dr1\/er, and if so why? (Bonus pts for not falling back on the "racism is prejudice plus power")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4a3V0f72-s

I mean it makes no sense to act like that Guns n Roses N-word is somehow "more artistic" than Coe doing it when it's obviously just plain ol racism that Axl later explained away as babby Axle being "too real." The oi and outlaw country guys don't think they're being legitimately racist either, half the time. If we're gonna talk about "artistically" using a word, we may as well define what we mean.

no one here claimed that axl rose's use of the word served any legitimate artistic purpose. with others, like patti smith and cocorosie, the consensus was that their use of the word was ill advised in the end, even if their intention wasn't to express racism.

expressing racism is not a valuable artistic enterprise.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-love-fp-21.png

Is anyone here defending "Black Korea"?

Showing off your working knowledge of actual racist music is just wink-wink bullshit and the thread doesn't need it.

Winky G. Winkgarten

thought for sure that this revive was going to be about Honey G

punkishippies is always on about this shit

We should probably get into how Douglas Pearce is misunderstood while we are at it

Can't be bothered to read thread. What did we decide about The Classical in the end?

I guess I'll give punkishippies that the distinction between 'artistic' use of a racial slur and 'actually racist' use is vague and worth questioning. I agree that GnR were being actually racist in "One in a Million".

xp i always thought the use of the word, in "the classical," modified as it is with the word "obligatory," wass supposed to point out how societies have this tendency to marginalize certain groups -- sort of a foucauldian thing. the target is not the out group, but society, for creating out groups.

however, i am reading now that he is targeting the bbc's tendency toward tokenism, putting a few black people in the crowds of televised performances. this is a less defensible use of the word in my view. the target is still the "bbc" but the black people in the crowd are also being singled out in a very disrespectful kind of way.

inconclusive.

30 albums and he never did it other than 20 seconds into his would-be breakout record. total provocateur move, still makes me a bit uncomfortable though

I mean, it's meant to, yeah yeah

definitely mars a song with otherwise amazing lyrics

ts: 1981 vs. 2016

recent events reminded me of this classic exchange upthread:

Slayer: two Latinos and a Jew (Kerry King). Granted, the other guy is about as Aryan as you can get and is obsessed with Nazi imagery, but what are you gonna do.

― Chicago to Philadelphia: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:38 AM

not be obsessed with nazi imagery

― max, Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:39 AM

lol