It's the principle of the thing...

To answer the last question -- well, yeah. If I vetted my collection for all the stuff done by people who were/are morons, idiots, folks I'd run away from screaming in real life and so forth, I have a feeling all I'd have left would be about ten discs made by people I actually know.

To me (to quote Jesse Jackson on SNL) the initial question is moot. In those cases, you buy it used. Well, you should always buy used anyway.

Honestly, I don't believe an artist's personal life should be a factor in deciding if you want to listen to their music. I can understand not wanting to directly purchase the work of someone who is using their money to do completely dodgy things, but it doesn't really affect their music.

I honestly can't think of an example where I turned down a CD I liked because of the behavior of the artist. I wish I could, almost, because I feel like I'm just reiterating Ned, but I really don't care what a person says or thinks in terms of their art. In the specific examples in the question, I don't really LIKE either of those artists for musical reasons so I don't buy them. But I'll still buy Jay-Z no matter how many times he gets arrested...

I suppose that Eminem is a bit like that for me in that his beliefs are just utterly vile to me, but on the other hand I completely loathe most of his music, and find him to have an annoying, annoying voice, so even that's not solely on the basis of his belief system.

I think it does matter to some extent. Charles Manson for example.

I've never let it affect my listening, really. I don't agree with the idea that owning and liking a record by somebody is 'promoting' that artist, let alone what they believe in.

But, of course, we're on the Internet now, and ILM and FT have a small but appreciable audience of sometimes-influenceable people - so the interesting question should perhaps be: do you/should you let principles affect what you *write* about?

Having heard Sonic Boom and Frank Kozik's version of dear ol' Charlie's "Mechanical Man" just yesterday -- well, I dunno. Better him than David Koresh as a songwriter.

Meaning we should only write about the 'nice' people, Tom? I'm trying to get a sense of the question here.

I'm not saying we should or shouldnt do anything, Ned ;) I'm saying that the question becomes more urgent when private listening gets translated to public pronouncements on listening. FT has encouraged its readers to listen to all sorts of unpleasant people and will no doubt continue to do so.

Not sure whether I agree with Tom here. I could never actually spend money on anything by Ludacris, for example. I couldn't morally countenance the idea of a financial transaction towards such content; though I find it musically exciting, I don't feel I can endorse it by the criteria of a capitalist system (read: buy it).

But I don't feel that way about downloading Ludacris et al from pre- block Napster or from the MP3 newsgroups or wherever. I suppose the difference in feeling is because there is no direct financial transaction involved, and it's not a physical entity so I don't feel I've "bought into it" in such an obvious way. I'm sorry if I sound priggish, but my moral feelings about music "being there" in a purely disposable, non-visible sense are very different to my feelings about it "being there" in a sense that screams up at me from a CD cover.

Yay! I mean, we're operating under an unspoken presumption here (aren't we?) that, in comparison to the regular fear of 'listen to bad music/read bad books/see bad movies = go to school with a gun wearing black trenchcoats,' instead it's 'these clowns may, indeed, be total and utter clowns, but damn, this sounds good,' or alternately trashing them for bad music, not for being themselves rephrensible. That being the case, of course we're going to all keep doing that.

Sean's G. Glitter example is a good one because I don't believe there's anything in his music that endorses the consumption of internet child porn and so I'm happy to have his recs still around the house. On the other hand I wouldn't want to go near Burzum or Screwdriver albs because the records themselves explicitly promote beliefs I find morally abhorrent. Of course there are all sorts of dubious grey areas, moreso in lit and flicks, perhaps - Celine, the films of Don Siegel, etc. What about Wagner?

But of course Glitter recorded "Do You Wanna Touch Me"? That one has certainly (and understandably) been pretty much written out of history.

As for the old chestnut of Wagner / Hitler, I certainly don't believe in denouncing music simply because of connections with nationalism and fascism. The BNP have invoked "Tam Lin", but I don't think that reflects badly on Fairport Convention's version of same; it just shows that racists will always jump on anything "traditional".

What did Ludacris say that was so offensive? Did I miss something? As far as the original question, I'm not particularly interested in what musicians believe. I may refuse to buy the new Weezer album on principle after seeing offensively obvious Hash Pipe video, but that's mostly because the album sucks (save for Photograph and Islands in the Sun). On a strictly theoretical level (because I hate music and don't buy records) I'd me far more apt to buy an album of shitty music by E-40 just cuz I think he's cool than to not buy a great album by Skrewdriver because they're nazis or whatever. Or something...even I don't understand what I just wrote there (just so you don't get me wrong though, the chances of me liking a Skrewdriver record after the early singles, which weren't racist at all, is probably about 0, especially if they're just going off on how racist they are). Actually, I think the people I find truly offensive (Stipe, Bono, Sting, Skrewdriver, Jello Biafra) make pretty shitty music anyway; so my conscience relaxes.

I wouldn't buy a GG Allin record even if I liked the music, but there's probably artists in my collection who've done worse things. I'd have a hard time saying where I draw the line.

I find "Game Got Switched" repulsive, but then I would.

To give short answer to all three of Sean's questions. Yes, yes and yes.

One example - the Chili Peppers.

I encourage piracy (meaning acting like a pirate/viking) in an upcoming article about the Scandinavian scene, so I guess in June we'll see how people feel about objectionable things being said in Freaky Trigger. Probably no one will read it and it won't matter though. I get offended by people who refuse to buy something they know they'll like because they find the artist's beliefs offensive, I think it's superior and snobby. But I like people who act superior and snobby, so I wouldn't let it get in the way of my friendship with them.

This a really tricky question. I wouldn't want to listen to or buy any work I found offensive (and it takes a lot to offend me), but as for funding the people involved...hmm. If I believed Morrissey to be racist (I don't) I certainly wouldn't BUY anything of his, even if he came up with the best tunes imaginable (unlikely, I know). More commonly though, I won't buy something if I feel the artist is lazy, a prominent example here being all those old britpop/dadrock bands - I won't give them my money if they're just ripping off old ideas.

Re not buying a record on principle: No, never done it. I might consider such a thing, but I honestly don't think I've ever known anyone who makes music well enough to make such a judgement. Like, if some guy in a band insulted my family or something, I probably wouldn't buy his record. But it's nearly impossible to glean anything significant about who a person really is from lyrics or an article in a magazine. Yes, even The Nuge.

But if I get my way, history will never forget "Do You Wanna Touch Me". Gary Glitter's finest hour.

If I think abt this hard, seems to me that I've actually worked a kind of get-out clause — cheat, maybe — right into the core of my attitudes. As follows: (a) clearly anyone can do or say something bad, a one-off/two-off/six-off stupid ugliness, and still make good work — Axl and Miles Davis are fucked-up fucks, two of a kind, but, hey, the work may be good precisely because it's about problems of/reasons for the bad. However (b) someone who genuinely IS bad — as a permanent proposition — COULDN'T make good work. Because badness is brokenness, enclosedness, smotheredness. Fred West's poetry/painting/records would be dreary and small and useless and unusable: looking at pictures of his attempts at interior decor gave me the creeps, because they were so evidently about evading the Central Issue — cuz you couldn't live like that w/o evading the central issue.

So: a's work I can live with; b's I just needn't worry abt. Handy.

I can think of several people who've made racist remarks — Clapton, famously — whose work is entirely evidently not racist, but nevertheless disappointing subsequently, and ultimately a failure, because it veers away from even glancing at the contradictions in the situation (not least: white guy working in black tradition). He's atoned, sure, but not interestingly. Costello: he atoned; he's also pushed into a zone sometimes where he's unpicked (or anyway picked at) exactly what it is that causes his kind of remark to be made (unmoored provocation, the complacencies of anti-complacency). Eminem: I have ZERO problem with his — or Slim Shady's or whoever's — homophobia when so much of E's work is directly and forever ABOUT the contradictions of attitude and stance and anger and resentment and blame and confusion... As with Celine, the problem doesn't even quite arise: what's on the page needs the plunge through the stuff that it is, its study of itself as pathology, or whatever.

Skrewdriver etc: well, a demonic little bit of me wants to know, y'know, is ANYTHING in their sound "good" — and if so, could I hear it, separate it (the tiny counter-flow element deep in it screaming to be rescued from the stifling hell of being a nazi)? Offset this against: why wd I bother trying? It's unnerving enough reading Ian Kershaw's book abt Hitler on the bus, wondering about who's wondering about you. Why wd I put myself in a situation where I have to explain that I'm not the David Irving of Oi, just to test an aesthetic assumption which I suspect is partly somewhat self-deluding protective flannel anyway?

I think you're reading too much into Eminem's work there, Mark, but that's another thread entirely!

Back in 5th grade, we had a little something called the DARE program-- "Dare to keep kids off drugs," I think went the slogan. Under Officer X's suggestion, I decided to take a moral stand against the music (and television) industry. If I saw a musician smoking or drinking, or heard him talk about pot, I decided not to like him anymore. This lasted for, oh, five or six weeks, until I realized that I had nothing left to like, at which point I promptly forgot about DARE.

It's an interesting topic, though. I wouldn't care that Ted Nugent is a xenophobic death-worshipper if he didn't suck so damn hard, but alas... maybe fascist rednecks just don't make very good musicians. Or, for that matter, Satanic hippies.

I have actually heard Skrewdriver - unsurprisingly their sound was authentic circa 1980 gumby-Oi. Maybe a connoisseur of the genre would be able to advise whether they're positioned closer to early Anti Pasti or mid-period Last Resort, but I cannot. I guess they sound pretty much like their 'philosophy' - ugly.

Skrewdriver etc: well, a demonic little bit of me wants to know, y'know, is ANYTHING in their sound "good" — and if so, could I hear it, separate it (the tiny counter-flow element deep in it screaming to be rescued from the stifling hell of being a nazi)? (Mark S)

I saw Skrewdiver a few times (in the period *before* they 'went nazi'). They were a slightly above average punk band - the lead singer had a certain something. I've not heard any of their later work but I would have thought that it would be difficult to extract anything good from it because, from what I've read, the music was pretty much a *vehicle* for the extreme right wing lyrical content (therefore almost impossible to ignore that content).

i've missed on something here, can anyone tell me exactly what nugent, clapton and costello did/said that was offensive. i don't know anything about these people really, and have never paid attention to them, so i'm unaware of what happened.

can anyone tell me exactly what nugent, clapton and costello did/said that was offensive (gareth)

I don't know about Nugent or Costello, but Clapton stated at least once (probably in the late 70's) that he agreed with Enoch Powell's views on immigration/race relations.

Clapton, drunk on-stage c.1975, stated agreement with Powell esp. in ref too many rich arabs shopping in Knightsbridge. A one- off, but jeezus.

Costello, c.1979, poss.drunk, certainly tour-weary and pissed off, turned a punk vs old-fart argt with Stephen Stills into a debate on the merits of James Brown and others into a liberal-baiting tirade in which he hurtled over any line you can draw (by all accounts). Of course all accounts were routed thru Stills's next-day spill-to-the-press version — he at that time still had a direct line to the rock media. Till this thread, I'd have said Costello had never quite lived it down at least in America. Perhaps he now has. He talks abt the incident to G.Marcus in _Fascist Bathroom_.

Part of the point I'm making, Ned, is that yes, I think that "reading into it" is the major dynamic in what I do, for ALL of them (and for everyone else). I'm only semi-interested in their intentionality-an-sich: it's the phosphorus-into-water of them (and obviously a bit their world) mixing with me in my world.

Skrewdriver: I guess I'm mocking my own tendency to argue that the Whole and All of Their Sound can't be FOR their programme, as their programme is intrinsically against the Totality of Band Sound as Totaloity. My ever-cocked ear for the still small voice of the anti-fascist HiHat. As I've never heard a note, this ear may be more deluded even than the parts of me which just say "Oh, fuck off."

Incidentally, didn't the singer-with-the-certain-something (Ian something?) go on to (a) be a major draw/voice in the NF/BNP nexus (b) kill himself because he was secretly gay?

Same thing happened in the German movement: the chief neo-nazi ideologue — fergit name, can look it up — a very dandyish and sardonic-ironic and "cultured" fellow, died of AIDS-related in the early 90s. He was barely even closet, by all accounts (tho I 've only read one).

All of which goes towards my theory-of-conflicted-elements, even in the "work" of neo-Aryan boneheads. But I posted this w/o benefit of fact-checking, so don't rest too much of yr theories and counter-theories on it.

On principle anything deserves a hearing, irrespective of the motivations or associations surrounding it. In practice this isn't a problem cause music being expressive carries some trace of it's source, the personality of musician, the likelihood being that if you don't like the music, you don't like the people behind it. Even when this isn't evident, or sounds deliberately absent (techno, electronica), it's not impossible to work out what went into the music, it's just more subtly concealed. Whether or not you should listen to it depends on how effective it is at conveying the dubious content, and that depends on the individual. You don't have to buy it, but I wouldn't stop anyone else trying it. Common sense prevails.

Ted Nugent I think has been known to tell the audience at his concerts that if anyone doesn't speak english they should get the fuck out.

At which point all those in the audience who DON'T speak English yell and punch the air, just like everyone who DOES speak English. For obvious reasons, Ted Nugent is not a threat to civilisation.

Ted Nugent is just your typical midwestern redneck.

A friend of mine did production work on his cable-access tv show, and all he did was whine about how he couldn't find babysitters for his kids, and then try to convince the college kids who were doing the production work on his show to babysit for him. And demand artificial sweetener for his iced tea. A threat to society he ain't.

I really couldn't buy anything if I only bought from people who were considered nice.

if anyone doesn't speak english they should get the fuck out.

if they didn't speak English how were they supposed to understand his request in the first place? sheesh, why not draw a picture asking everyone who is blind to get out?

Nobody ever said Nugent was bright.

On the other hand, I have, every now and then, bought something on principle, because it was unfairly critically maligned or the musician seemed to be an interesting person or such.

The Skrewdriver man was Ian Stuart (or Stewart, forget sp). And, yes, he did commit suicide, though I wasn't aware of the reason, and, yes, he became a leading figure within the far-right.

Wasn't Mark Radcliffe (of all people) briefly drummer in the early pre-nazi incarnation of Skrewdriver (or possibly even before that - maybe it was an earlier band of Stuart's)?

Re Ian Stewart/Stuart. The article I read said he was killed in a car accident.

I'm still curious as to what Nazi Skrewdriver would be like. Part of what's appealing about some Sex Pistols stuff is the way Rotten just starts railing against everything, and I can imagine Skrewdriver's rabidly offensive views married to aggressive punk music being very striking.

As for the Norwegian black metal stuff, one of the amusing things about that whole thing is that the main guy in Burzum, who was imprisoned for murder and arson, was ruled personally financially liable for the repair and rebuilding of the churches he burned down. So in buying Burzum records you are contributing to the compensation of his victims. Kind of.

woah! careful -

About 10 years ago I had the misfortune of being trapped in a Psychobilly's car for an hour and being forced to listen to a Skrewdriver tape (long story)

the lyrics weren't so much direct, wild assaults on things a la Rotten, as po-faced addresses to the NF faithful that it was time to "cleanse our country". And as such, simultaneously vile and dull, a uniquely Nazi attribute.

Mark Radcliffe was in an earlier line-up of skrewdriver. The whole story is covered quite well in his book (which isn't very good IMO - get it from the library or find a remaindered copy)

As far as not buying records based on the principle of their composer/performer being an a$$, yet again I cite PRML SCRM. I quite liked "kowalski" but didn't buy it for that very reason. Eventually it turned up on IIRC a "select" cover CD. Ha! Victory!!

x0x0

i am a 15 year old punk from a small town neat san antonio, texas. for starters, i am a 'peace punk' and do not believe in racism/fascism nor violence. however, i will say that skrewdriver recorded some of the catchiest songs i have ever heard. i like all the music up to the 'white power' 7" ep, and after i don't care for it too much. this is mostly because the music sucks, but on a fairly equal level, their stupid point of view. i personally don't think that politics are as important as the music. cause after all, john lennon can be heard saying 'no pakistanis' on at least a handful of bootlegs that appeared in the subsequent decades after the 'get back' fiasco. however, no one ever called lennon a fascist, i suppose he may have redeemed himself in the public's eye with the ever-present 'imagine.' peace.

I find it pretty easy to separate an artist's shortcomings as a person from my appreciation for the art. Miles Davis, Pablo Picasso, Jackson Pollock, and Charles Bukowski were all complete assholes, but I find their work all the more impressive for being good enough to make this irrelevant. Then we have people like Varg Vikernes aka Burzum, the infamous arsonist/murderer/nazi. I really, REALLY wanted to hate Burzum, but the music is of such undeniable quality and emotional resonance (within it's particular genre:definitely not for everybody, sonically speaking), that I have found myself in the awkward position of venerating the work of an artist who would gladly exterminate a mongrel such as myself. I've never actually heard Skrewdriver, but if their music is just a vehicle for their ideology, then this is where they diverge from a band like Burzum. Vikernes' singing is completely unintelligible, and even the transcriptions of his lyrics don't seem to display the views he has expressed in interviews. In addition, the Norwegian government confiscates all of his post-incarceration profits, so buying his albums new doesn't present a problem to me. Still. I regard Varg from a perspective unique amongst my engagements with various artists: An ideological enemy and an artistic kindred spirit, like a an ancient warrior's deep respect for a formidable foe.

i refused to buy the ace Soulwax mix album because Soulwax are Scum and they EAT BABIES.

I have a tendency to rant and over-rationalize, to think and re- think, etc. So I'm apologizing ahead of time if some of this becomes rather convoluted, as I don't like to go back and correct what I have written once it has been written. Anyway, here I go:

For a long while, I refused to buy music created by "Nazis", "fascists", racists. This eventually evolved into me not buying music by capitalists, anti-animal rights-types, anti-Earth- types, people who champion the drug culture, and just about anyone who wasn't a vegan straight-edger.

I became immersed in the whole "moral rush" and my life became more and more limited. I became a total moralist, and in that I became more and more reactionary, even though that was not at all my intent. Along with my selection of music being very limited, my diet and my mind was limited as well. I used to be so objective and open- minded, but that all had changed.

After a time of growing sick from not having access to enough of the right foods (as I refused to drive a car because of it's effects on the environment), not knowing why I was doing what I was doing (I mean the REAL question behind the questions - WHY?), and from pushing people away from me I started to come apart. Something broke.

Slowly but surely everything became undone. I reached an extreme and shattered internally. I fell apart, became depressed, considered suicide often (sometimes as a result of the thinking that I'd be better off dead than risking the chance of hurting another living thing), and after multiple cycles of "recovery"-lapse-recovery-lapse- etc., I fell into a state of utter nihilism and apathy.

In the end, I reasoned myself into not acting like or listening to certain individuals because what I thought I was doing was right. But if you pick deeper and deeper into a subject, you will eventually reach a breaking point. If you follow the path of "moralism," you will eventually have to question why you are following that path at all, and you will realize that there is no real good reason for it, for the meaning of life has not even been explained. How, if we don't know why we are here, can we seperate right from wrong? Who makes the distinctions? Who draws the lines? (For the same matter, why shouldn't we seperate right from wrong - but in doing so, are you making judgements based on fact, or opinion?)

I can't go into the many, many, MANY ordeals I went through as a student of "philosophy." The books I've read and the ideas I meditated upon eventually tore my mind apart in every direction. I eventually came to the conclusion that life will always remain a mystery, as nobody (at least from my perspective) is omniscient. We can't be sure if there is or is not a higher power dictating to us the difference between right and wrong. All we have to depend on is us fallible human beings. And we are bound to fail miserably from time to time. Even Einstien had wished he hadn't made the discoveries he had made after he found out what they would be used for, and do you think Christ would have preached had he knew he would cause billions of people to kill in his name? (Tricky question for Christians, as they will say that Christ knew/knows all - but then was Christ a murderer? One question leads to the next, and to the next, etc.)

You might say I'm a pessimist, but I don't see it that way. I see the fact that we are all alone in the universe when it comes to making any big decisions a chance to express one's self in a most beautiful, human manner. Stand out. Listen to what you want, and don't let anything - and I mean ANYTHING - stand in your way. Let yourself BE YOURSELF, and fuck anyone who can't deal with that.

You are only who you are, and that's the most anyone can ask from you. Just because someone refuses to listen to Burzum, Charles Manson, David Koresh, Skrewdriver, etc. doesn't mean they are better than someone who does - and it doesn't mean they are smarter, either. I personally hate Skrewdriver - I think they suck. It has nothing to do with the fact that I am not a racist. If I was a racist, I'd still think they suck. But I am not ashamed of my growing collection of Burzum albums. Does my rejection of Skrewdriver and embrace of Burzum sound absurd? Life is absurd. Deal with it. And the best way to deal with it: Just be yourself. Listen to what YOU want.

Thanx. (And sorry again for my scattered brainwork.)

Communism, fascism, nazism, racism, zionism really suck. The most important thing in this matter is the artwork. I'm a student of composition and I really like all types of music and I buy music for its artistic and technique tools of construction. I look at myself like a Straight-Edger and it doesn't restrain me to buy music by Mauricio Kagel (one of my favorite composers), who used to compose under effects of drugs such as LSD, or John Cage, a "mushroom eater" who changed the contemporary music scene with his outstanding concepts. No ones could blame by fascist or anti-semitic attitude cause I like the Wagner's music, or being Zionist supporter cause I'm a fan of Jewish musicians as Mendelsohnn, Schönberg or Baremboim. The real problem is inside of people's brain, full of prejudice and stereotypes. Recently, I bought "Romper Stomper" original soundtrack and it's really exciting. It's a masterpiece of Oi. However, many people said to me "Die you, f*cking nazi!" or an ironic "Sieg Heil", but nobody acussed me of "leftist" when I was buying music by Test Dept, Henry Cow or any Kraut Rock band (?). I've listened to NS bands such as Skrewdriver, Brutal Attack, Fortress, Skullhead and so forth and I think they are great musicians. I've listened to great composers as Stockhausen, Berio, Saariaho, Lindberg or Dusapin cause they are great musicians. I enjoy with Cecil Taylor's piano mastery (black musician), with Pluton Svea's rage (white supremacist musician), with GG Allin's sincerity, or with beauty anarco-freak pop by Sonic Youth. The art (for instance, music) must express love, hate, fear, sadness or whatever and the art is the tool. Unfortunately, many people only want to see the most silly and superficial thing in this matter.......