Hot Stove 2023-2024

I don’t know how set in stone that 460 mil is, based on the questions thermo thinwall brought up, but that’s the ballpark reporters are going with right now

no offense to you "fuck ohtani" and 'fuck baseball" guys but your beef is with the owners it is not with ohtani. the owners have been trying to ruin baseball for 150 years and yet here we are

Tbf, it’s reasonable to think this one was pushed by ohtani too, and at the very least obviously accepted. I’m still trying to think through the implications of what this actually means beyond this singular event tho. For now it’s clearly in the rules so anyone can do it. If smarter brains than I have determined it’s terrible for the sport/players (whatever to owners), then I’m sure it’ll be changed very quickly

The owners have a vested interest in making money, but having a competitive product is strongly tied to making money (see Steve cohen tax). Hence my questionably naive hope

everyone is saying it was pushed by ohtani and i'm sure it was because no team would ever propose this to a player. but the idea that the competitive balance aspect of it is for ohtani to worry about is ludicrous

Why would anyone's beef on this specific issue be with the owners for agreeing to a player's idea?

Fans beef with players every time they try to craft a superteam around them (unless that superteam is your team).

Xp Completely true. The idea shohei should even shirk the idea of not allowing his team to be as competitive as possible (within the clearly defined rules) is against the principles of what it means to be a player in general. Can’t really shame the player for doing the most for his team to win, that’s they’re main job

Their

having a competitive product is strongly tied to making money

the problem w/ this statement is that it takes it as a fact that the dodgers are going to render baseball non-competitive. let's put aside the fact that a legendary team in a huge market winning 5 straight world series would in fact be amazing for the business of baseball overall, the more likely outcome is that the dodgers fall victim to the typical problems that plague old, expensive sports teams. or, like the astros, they make 7 straight LCS appearances but only win two titles. there's too many variables at play, history would tell you that competitive balance is always going to find its balance

Real Ohtani beef should be with undermining the union and (entirely of his own volition) setting a precedent for every team to try to screw over future big contracts.

Trust me on this, I take absolutely none of that as a fact and completely agree with everything you said

I was schooled on this opinion early in the thread

Why would anyone's beef on this specific issue be with the owners for agreeing to a player's idea?

Fans beef with players every time they try to craft a superteam around them (unless that superteam is your team).

― papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, December 11, 2023 7:34 PM (two minutes ago)

hey if you want to be mad at ohtani knock yourself out. "fans direct their anger at players instead of the billionaire owners who make all the rules" is not a defense that *i* would be making of *myself*. but live your truth, it's america.

This is way way back in the thread now but LOL at the idea that the Orioles winning the division in 2023 is proof that money doesn't win ballgames, the Orioles don't spend money and largely thanks to this they sniff contention once a decade or so and sometimes lose 110 games

Real Ohtani beef should be with undermining the union and (entirely of his own volition) setting a precedent for every team to try to screw over future big contracts.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, December 11, 2023 7:38 PM (three minutes ago)

again this is only legal per the union in the first place because it does not effect 99.9% of the union. if you want to be pissed at ohtani for undermining the future earnings of... like... adley rutschman or something go ahead but that's a weird thing to be mad about

Didn’t know Ben Verlander posted here

I mean there was more in that post than the “the orioles”. What’s with all these black and white readings? If someone says money is not THE ONLY THING that leads to winning, why are people reading that as someone saying money is not important to winning? Hard to not text wall when so many people read what they want from your posts unless you put in a million provisos (don’t worry, I won’t)

Didn’t know Ben Verlander posted here

― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Tuesday, 12 December 2023 10:47 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Stick to the informative posts about baseball which you’re good at. The vitriolic quips aren’t your strong suit

"fans direct their anger at players instead of the billionaire owners who make all the rules"

Except the owners didn't make all the rules here? They're collectively bargained with the union - and no, they didn't take into the account a player giving those owners a bunch of money because why the fuck would you ever think you'd need to take that into account?

i don't know who ben verlander is. some dumb baseball guy?

anyway, you guys are talking about the future earnings of hundred million dollar players when the precedent that has been set that is actually materially effecting the earnings you guys apparently care so much about were the ozzie albies and ronald acuna type contracts that have now led to the corbin carrol and jackson chourio contracts where kids w/ barely any money are being incentivized to give up huge amounts of potential money in their prime earning years in order to "buy out" all the years of artificially depressed salaries put in place by the owners to hoard money. the amount of players who are even going to get to free agency to have their earnings "undermined" by the evil ohtani is rapidly dwindling by the day because the owners have moved on to screwing their best players before they even hit the majors. but maybe i heard that on ben verlander's podcast i'll have to go back and check

I think what you had said earlier is that more small market teams should do a Rays. But it’s incredibly hard to pull off. And I’m sure lots are trying, but it’s not a real solution to financial imbalance in the league. (I’d also add that the issue is getting blown out of proportion a little too right now)

That was an xpost to HP

So just to confirm, everyone up in arms about this thinks torn ucl ohtani is worth significantly more than 460 million over 10 years. I do, to clarify. It’s the players right to charge what they want for what they value. Part of this feels like the condescending attitudes Ozzie allies got for his contract exemption. That might have been terrible for the sport, but the guy is an individual and has the right to play where he wants for what he wants. People online were treating him like a kid that new nothing when that came out.

Yes this is a different situation, but there are elements of this

Didn’t see your post before bringing up Albies Jordan

as to "if you want to be mad at ohtani knock yourself out" you're aggressively missing the point of that post. IDGAF about Ohtani or the deal. If he'd signed for the Giants I don't think it makes them a championship quality team and probably cripples them eventually (because our billionaire scumbags would not just keep spending). The Dodgers were going to spend out the ass regardless so this just means the chucklehead who also owns Chelsea can waste a few hundred million more on that dogshit.

I don't see any reason to pretend that fans don't get mad whenever a player appears to build a supporting cast to carry them or that they should direct their ire at 'owners' when in this one specific instance it's entirely a product of the player's agency.

you guys are talking about the future earnings of hundred million dollar players when the precedent that has been set that is actually materially effecting the earnings you guys apparently care so much about were the ozzie albies and ronald acuna type contracts that have now led to the corbin carrol and jackson chourio contracts where kids w/ barely any money are being incentivized to give up huge amounts of potential money in their prime earning years in order to "buy out" all the years of artificially depressed salaries put in place by the owners to hoard money

I know this will shock you to the grave but it's possible for someone to disapprove of multiple things!

Agree thinwall. It’s not easy to pull off, money makes things easier, but all owners have money (I think?). How each team chooses to play the game of baseball is on them. Who is crying for how this deal affects John Fisher right now? Yes it sucks to be a fan of a John fisher owned team, but the dodgers ownership aren’t responsible for the happiness of John fisher team fans

If you're team 'abolish the draft, make every 18-year old a free agent and kill the remnants of the reserve clause,' (as everyone should be) it would still be entirely possible to not approve of Ohtani essentially playing for free for some of those billionaire scumbags.

I don't see any reason to pretend that fans don't get mad whenever a player appears to build a supporting cast to carry them or that they should direct their ire at 'owners' when in this one specific instance it's entirely a product of the player's agency.

putting aside that you're basically just asking me to acknowledge that people are dumb, i think you're conflating basketball and baseball. ohtani won 2 MVPs for teams that didn't even come close to making the playoffs. you can't build superteams in baseball. these feelings are not rational

I dunno, I personally think ohtani should keep playing baseball for the masses because it’s what he wants and what we (most of us) want. But for those who want him to suffer a career ending injury, I guess I can’t argue with you if those are your priorities?

If you're team 'abolish the draft, make every 18-year old a free agent and kill the remnants of the reserve clause,' (as everyone should be) it would still be entirely possible to not approve of Ohtani essentially playing for free for some of those billionaire scumbags.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, December 11, 2023 8:03 PM (five minutes ago)

but the reason why someone might care about abolishing the draft and making teenagers free agents is because teenagers haven't made any money. the reason why someone might not care that much about whether ohtani is donating hundreds of millions back to the owners of the dodgers is because he's already insanely wealthy. how mad do you get about wealth transfers between extremely rich parties when sports aren't involved?

i think it's wack that lebron's salary is capped because he has made the NBA billions upon billions of dollars that it will never come close to repaying him for. but when i start thinking about things that need to be fixed about the NBA that one isn't really at the top of the list. you see what i'm saying?

You're just making a version of the THEY JUST PLAY A GAME argument now.

no i'm saying that it's possible to enjoy sports w/o being irrationally angry at players over their financial decisions

He’s really not

i'm also saying that you're describing ohtani as "playing practically for free" when in reality he will be making like $450 million to $500 million on this deal and offering that your framing of this issue might not be the most sound

Thank you

i think you're conflating basketball and baseball. ohtani won 2 MVPs for teams that didn't even come close to making the playoffs. you can't build superteams in baseball. these feelings are not rational

It takes more than 2.5 players but freeing up $48 million a year (and given his ancillary value, more than that) is worth 6-7 wins a season for a team that isn't incompetent (on top of Ohtani's 5-9 wins). This is different from Steve Cohen setting money on fire because it's actual money saved (with luxury tax implications) rather than just banking on an owner spending until they have to take out payroll loans.

A baseball "superteam" doesn't mean they win every ring for ten years, no - but Lebron's Heat also got owned by Flu Dirk and A Bunch of Guys.

I don't know that people being mad about the concept of a superteam is any dumber than your argument that these people should in this instance be mad at owners (for... not turning down free money?).

He’s really not

He is, though. "They're already rich who cares" is the base stance of everyone who gets mad at sports unions for striking to demand better pay or conditions.

Are you saying ohtani is worth 46 million (his current estimated yearly pay) PLUS 48 mil for a grand total of 94 million a year????????

To clarify, yes 2 million yearly pay but 46 mil for luxury tax purposes

It’s not “they’re already rich who cares”, it’s “an adult can make their own decision”.

If people were pissed at me because I took the 200k a year job at the hospital next door to me instead of the 300k job on the other side of the country…..

460mil over 10 years is still the largest MLB contract ever. Easily beating second Trouts $426.5 million over 12 years. This is still the most money a player has ever gotten, this is still the most a single player has ever effected the luxury tax. He's just structured his contract so as to make sure his team is not completely burdened by him thus defeating his main purpose for playing: to win games.

My understanding is Ohtani took this approach (massively deferring his salary to keep team payroll flexible) with all the teams he negotiated with

So this wasn't a Dodgers-exclusive thing. Seems like he thought this was the best way to win in his new destination

— Jack Harris (@ByJackHarris) December 11, 2023

And lets be honest, which is worse for competition: The dodgers spending 70 mil a year on a player, or 46 mil a year on a player? I'm big for paying the players, but if the dodgers are entering the 70mil territory, they've now doubled the status quo of what a great player should/could earn. I think they're negatively effecting the fanbases of cheap-owner led teams more with a 700mil no deferrals deal, than this 46mil business. But there wasn't this vocal an outcry at how unfair things were when this first broke

"They're already rich who cares" is the base stance of everyone who gets mad at sports unions for striking to demand better pay or conditions.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, December 11, 2023 8:23 PM (twenty-six minutes ago)

the argument i'm making is "they're already rich who cares" *when we are talking about the 5-8 players in baseball who have deferred money in their contracts*. further, what i am saying is that this idea that ohtani is betraying or undermining the union is ridiculous because the rank and file union members will never make enough money to deal w/ the possibility of salary deferment. the majority of players *on the all star team* in a given year will never even make enough money to deal w/ salary deferments. your notion that this has anything to do w/ strikes or better pay/conditions is ridiculous, sorry.

xp to myself!

so why did he do it this way rather than just a plain jane 460mil 10 year no deferral? because 2 mil actually paid helps to win now ("win now" attitude being the conditional approach to any contract he would sign; thanks Angels), and probably for tax reasons? I'm fine with players trying to win now, I'm okay with non-citizens not paying crazy man tax to the country they're currently living in (I imagine shohei will move back to japan after his career?). I'm okay with players playing slightly cheaper so they don't have to move/lifestlye (is this more than a 10% discount? do other teams offer significantly more than 506mil/10 years when everything is accounted for? was someone offering a 770 mil contract with the same deferrals?)

It’s not “they’re already rich who cares

"you guys are talking about the future earnings of hundred million dollar players"

"the amount of players who are even going to get to free agency to have their earnings "undermined" by the evil ohtani"

"because he's already insanely wealthy. how mad do you get about wealth transfers between extremely rich parties when sports aren't involved?"

Every full season MLB player will earn more next season than a median worker will earn in 10. Every 2023 first round draft pick gets a bonus check equivalent to about 50 years of median individual income (so no, objection to the concept of a player draft is not about those players 'not having earned any money').

If relative wealth sets a limit on which sports labor questions you care about - most of us shouldn't care about any of them!

It’s not “they’re already rich who cares”, it’s “an adult can make their own decision”.

Yes, an adult can make their own decision - and other adults can look at that and go "that's fuckin' lame" for any number of reasons.

Sucks to not get ohtani, but don't think this is a crime against baseball, think it's reasonably fair when all is accounted for, think the outcry against ohtani (Ohtani specifically, say what you want to the dodgers/mlb/other owners) is absolutely ridiculous. Questioning whether people being cool with a career ending injury for ohtani have: cognizant thoughts, like baseball, are anything other than complete assholes

Yes, an adult can make their own decision - and other adults can look at that and go "that's fuckin' lame" for any number of reasons.

It's also very weird to be dismissive because it 'only impacts a few guys' while also recognizing that owners are villainous scum. Inconceivable that they would take a precedent and run with it (like, uh, buying out years way under market value).

my concern here is, what happens with team that might go all-in with this kind of thing. like, completely mortgage the future for 5 or 10 or 12 years of dominance; and then the team down the road has all these bills to pay and suddenly doesn't have the budget to put a competitive team on the field for another decade? it's going to be brutal for the owners down the road (whoever they may be), impossible for the next GM who inherits those bills to pay, and terrible for the team's fan base. i don't begrudge Ohtani for doing this and not really the dodgers either; but - i realize this is sort of a "slipper slope argument" - i forsee a lot of misery in the future if this sort of thing is allowed to get out of hand.

it "only impacts a few guys" who are clearly some of the best and most competitive players in baseball who now have competing interest of money/winning and this allows them some more flexibility toward the latter side of that equation without necessarily sacrificing the former (in the long run).

Just because something positively impacts a team, does not mean it negatively impacts its players. team x players is not a completely zero-sum game, there is the possibility of win-win in there.