Latino Legends, or how MLB continues to fuck up...

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read ahead (from the times). i don't imagine everyone here will agree, but i think leaving jackson and williams off the ballot is a big mistake. macro questions: in a non-strike year, has there been a bigger year of pr failures for mlb? it seems like there's a new fuck-up (and not just by bud HELLO DOC GOODEN) every week this season...

August 26, 2005
Who's a Latino Baseball Legend?

By RICHARD SANDOMIR
When Major League Baseball unveiled its ballot for the Latino Legends team Tuesday, the 60 nominees excluded two of the greatest Hispanic players ever: Ted Williams and Reggie Jackson.

Williams and Jackson's names seem out of place in a group with Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Pedro Martínez and Rod Carew, but Williams's mother was Mexican and Jackson's father was half Puerto Rican and played in the Negro leagues.

"I'm not surprised they're not on the list, because it sounds like it was done in a slipshod way" said Keith Hernandez, the former Mets first baseman, who is half-Spanish. "It wasn't well known about Ted, but Reggie Jackson's background was well documented to people involved in the game."

Had baseball made an egregious historical error by omitting Williams and his career .344 batting average or Jackson and his 563 home runs?

Not according to baseball. A spokesman, Carmine Tiso, said it was aware of the players' ethnic backgrounds but applied a litmus test that went beyond statistics: the nominees had to have a direct connection to their Latino heritage. A second spokesman, Richard Levin, said they should "represent the Latin community."

Tiso said: "It's a gray area. It's not an exact science. There may be other players with Latino heritage who may not acknowledge it." He admitted that not all players on the ballot have publicly discussed their backgrounds.

Baseball, which did not reveal its selection qualifications during its Latino Legends news conference, did it yesterday. And while it stated that mlb.com participated in the player selection, Jim Gallagher, a spokesman for mlb.com, said it only made a few suggestions after baseball presented a list of nominees.

In the estimation of baseball's marketing department and its consultants on baseball history, Williams and Jackson never did anything like Alex Rodriguez, whom Tiso quoted as having said, "I consider myself a Dominican."

Tiso said, "It's not that he was ashamed of his heritage, but we felt we didn't find enough connection from Ted to that Latino heritage."

Levin added that Williams's name "would distort the ballot" and "cause havoc" because his ethnicity is not widely known. Fans will be able to vote online at mlb.com and on paper ballots at Chevrolet dealerships.

Samuel O. Regalado, the author of "Viva Baseball" (University of Illinois Press), a history of Latino baseball, said he understood baseball's position, and said that Williams and Jackson were not pioneers for Hispanic players who came after them.

"But I don't know where the qualifying line is, because most of the recent players aren't pathfinders," he said. "If the criteria were solely based on numbers and on-field achievements, then Williams and Jackson have to be considered."

It is indisputable that Williams said little about being Mexican. He resembled his father, Sam, who was of Welsh-English heritage, not his mother, May.

"He never made a point of letting it be known," said Williams's nephew, who is also named Ted Williams. "He didn't promote it. He was very friendly with our Mexican relatives on a private basis, but sometimes he shunned them in public because he didn't want it to be known. His mother led an Anglo life in San Diego."

He added, "My father loved to repeat things that my uncle said, and one of them is that he called the family in Santa Barbara 'the Mexicans,' kind of lovingly."

In his 1969 autobiography, "My Turn At Bat," written with John Underwood, Williams said, "If I had my mother's name, there is no doubt that I would have run into problems in those days, the prejudices people had in Southern California."

Bill Nowlin, who researched Williams's early life for his new book, "The Kid: Ted Williams in San Diego" (Rounder), said Williams's uncle Saul Venzor, a Mexican, helped teach him baseball, and that Williams spent time in Santa Barbara visiting his Mexican grandmother, who barely spoke English.

But he said Williams sometimes shunned relatives on his mother's side.

"A lot of relatives felt he was told to turn his back on his background by Eddie Collins and not acknowledge that part of his family," Nowlin said, referring to the Red Sox general manager at the time.

Nowlin and Williams's nephew said they thought he would not have been upset at being omitted from the Latino Legends ballot. But Nowlin said, "I find it interesting that people of Latino origin are fascinated that Ted Williams is one of theirs."

Nowlin said Nomar Garciaparra told him that he and Williams once discussed their mutual Mexican backgrounds. Garciaparra, also omitted from the Legends list, told Nowlin that he told Williams, "God, Ted, I knew I liked you!"

Jackson, whose grandmother was Puerto Rican, said he is "proud of my Latin blood," but not upset at being left off the ballot. But he is offended by any suggestion by baseball about his connection to those roots.

"They have no right to pass judgment on what I claim about my Latin heritage," said Jackson, whose middle name is Martinez. "I just don't run my mouth off about it.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:05 (twenty years ago)

bumpin' so y'all see it.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

I'm a bit indifferent on Williams... while he did address his mother's ethnicity in "My Turn At Bat," I didn't know about it til he died, and neither did most Latin fans. What do they owe him?

Reggie is another matter, as his middle name was well-known (eg Mickey Rivers' one-liner).

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:33 (twenty years ago)

Hmmn. I would have included them, but I can understand the argument to some extent (well more for Williams.) It doesn't strike me as a PR disaster though as I'm glad it's getting talked about.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

I didn't know about it til he died, and neither did most Latin fans. What do they owe him?

i'm not sure what you mean by the fans "owing" him? but certainly, publicizing the fact that one of baseball's best hitters ever was half-mexican could only help, pr-wise, right? i mean, why hide it? esp. when most youngsters unfortunately only know ted as a frozen, decapitated corpse now.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:43 (twenty years ago)

also not nominating williams seems in effect, to me, to endorse the attitude of his times (which he bought into) of being reluctant to talk about heritage in an honest way. this ain't the 50s any more, and the hispanic population in this country is the fastest growing.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

I think they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they include Teddy, I'm sure some segment of the populace would wonder why a "real" latino wasn't included in his place.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:48 (twenty years ago)

Yeah I think that's obviously what they were thinking, basically omitting Williams is less controversial than including. Again though Jackson is hard to fathom.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

But because of his frozen corpse status, I think Ted's heritage wouldn't help him outpoll A-Rod, Pujols, Pedro, Clemente, Marichal, since he wasn't known to have a Mexican mother during his career. If it's purely a PR tool, what's the value of using a guy who was "told to turn his back on his background by Eddie Collins and not acknowledge that part of his family," and apparently complied?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:51 (twenty years ago)

I think they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they include Teddy, I'm sure some segment of the populace would wonder why a "real" latino wasn't included in his place.

that's kinda flawed logic. why would including him necessarily knock somebody else off? it's not like "there must be 60 nominees ONLY" was set in some law somewhere, that i'm aware of.

If it's purely a PR tool, what's the value of using a guy who was "told to turn his back on his background by Eddie Collins and not acknowledge that part of his family," and apparently complied?

because it shows the context of his times, without giving in to that mentality. because it shows how far latino players have come. because it's not historical white-washing (sorry if that's a bad choice of words, but that's what it is).

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

If it's purely a PR tool, what's the value of using a guy who was "told to turn his back on his background by Eddie Collins and not acknowledge that part of his family," and apparently complied?

Lots of Jewish players did the same thing, but because of the times in which they played, I don't think it makes them more or less Jewish than Hank Greenberg, who stirred controversy by refusing to play on Yom Kippur. If somebody like Williams played today, then his reasons for shunning his heritage would be more questionable.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

I don't disagree, but I guess 1) I'm not inclined to take any fan polls seriously and 2) I'm going by the US standard for "black" in which the social reality is "you LOOK it, you ARE it." I was talking with that old Puerto Rican sportswriter I mentioned at the SABR convention about early Cuban major leaguers, and his first words when I brought up Dolf Luque was "he was white" (ie, could pass).

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)

I'm going by the US standard for "black" in which the social reality is "you LOOK it, you ARE it."

and that standard is worth adhering to because it's worked so well.

discussing the "passing" phenomenon makes much more sense than pretending it didn't exist.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:12 (twenty years ago)

and yeah, it's a fan poll so it doesn't matter much. that is def. true.

anyway does anybody else think that - even when putting aside steroids - this has been one of the most controversial and crazy seasons in a while?

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:14 (twenty years ago)

Oh definitely (although it's kind of hard to separate the steroids out.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

Well, of course I don't want the passing/visual standard "adhered" to, but I think it reflects who the first Latin players who'll come to mind will be.

My dormant brain is having trouble coming up with the non-steroid controversies. Kenny Rogers and the like register as more of a sideshow.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

Yeah actually I guess the Kenny Rogers thing kind of pales compared to some of FAN/player interactions from LAST year.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

anyway to me, pointing out someone like williams as half-latino shows how bogus and bankrupt the idea of "passing" is anyway. it's not like all mexicans (or all latinos, for that matter) are dark-skinned! to take an even smaller nation, look at cuba and say "buena vista social club" (i'm gonna get all yup here but it's the first example that comes to mind since it was on cable the other week): compay segundo looks like he could be farming tobacco alongside my kentucky cousins, whereas um the one dude with the nat king cole-voice whose name i'm blanking on looks "black." race is meaningless, but imbued with meaning, every where.

as for this year's non-roids, you've got (in non-order):

1. mb and lt. dangle in la.
2. doc's dui.
3. kenny rogers not knowing when to walk away, or to run.
4. the yankee trapeze act.
5. fire joe torre, fire dusty baker, etc.
6. cameron/beltran collision.
etc. etc. and that's mostly recent stuff!

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:25 (twenty years ago)

Mid-game on-field accidents can't really be grouped w/ player-player altercations, or player-fan altercations, or fan-net altercations as "a bad thing".

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but Milton's exciting EVERY year (and manager firings get threatened all the time.) Plus I think the chair-throwing thing might be crazier than anything that happened this year.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:29 (twenty years ago)

Milton's proudly carrying the torch that Albert Belle used on his teammates.

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

c'mon, little love for fat sidney?

i mean, an aruban knight gets two duis and a misdemeanor for smakcing a judge?

of course, this is nothing compared to the golden age of the nfl wehn you had dudes getting busted for trnasporting serious amounts of dope and serious violent criminals (rae carruth? the ray lewis posse? lawrence phillips?)

jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:45 (twenty years ago)

Mid-game on-field accidents can't really be grouped w/ player-player altercations, or player-fan altercations, or fan-net altercations as "a bad thing"

i don't even think all those are all bad things! just exciting, controversial stories with a bit of DRAMA, dude.

yeah, forgot fat sidney.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:46 (twenty years ago)

I wonder how many pre-1947 'black' Latins who were unable to play in the US majors made this Legends ballot? Martin Dihigo, I imagine, since he's in the HOF. I haven't looked the ballot up.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

i haven't looked it up either! haha. fuck mlb.com (except for maura and tracer and r@nce and j0sh and a few selected others).

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

I just found out that the kid who played DJ on Roseanne was Cuban!!

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 26 August 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)

Don't forget Cream-of-Wheat-gate!

Actually, please forget it.

Leeeeeeee (Leee), Friday, 26 August 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)

Cream of what who?

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 26 August 2005 17:53 (twenty years ago)

I think of things like the Radio Idiot (oer even Gooden's far-from-unique woes) as being baseball's equivalent of that 'Aruba' crimestory was that Costas refused to do for an hour on CNN.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

oh c'mon morbs, like any of this is real news. it's baseball! of course it's fluff!

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)


heretic!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

Adrian Burgos on the SABR list posted a complaint letter to MLB illustrating, as we might've predicted, that recent players are favored on this ballot compared to bigger stars of the pre-ESPN era.

On: Juan Samuel, Adrian Beltre, Joaquin Andujar, Jose Rijo

Missing: Vic Power (7 Gold Gloves), Julio Franco, Tony Taylor, Pedro Guerrero, Juan Pizarro

Missing Jim Crow players: Jose Mendez, Cristobal Torriente, Horacio Martinez, Tetelo Vargas, Alejandro Oms


http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/mlb/y2005/m08/d23/c1180664.jsp


Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

Adrian Beltre?!?! WTF?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

also omitted: Cesar Cedeno, Bert Campaneris, Aurelio Rodriguez, John Candelaria, Mike Torrez

Burgos is an Assistant Professor, US Latino History, University of Illinois @ Urbana-Champaign... here he is on Ted:


"I find it hard to include him on the ballot for a number of reasons. Despite his rationale for not identifying as a Latino/Mexican (see
"My Turn at Bat") and for his not acknowledging his Mexican ancestry, there were other Latinos who played in the Major Leagues before and during his era who were openly identified as being of Mexican descent. Lefty Gomez and Melo Almada reveal that it was possible for a lighter-skinned player of Mexican ancestry to go from California to the big leagues. Similarly, he did not endure the hazing the Latino players such as Roberto Estalella encountered in that era; nor have I seen evidence of Williams becoming a vocal defender of Latinos during his career. The fact that Williams never identified as Latino
while he played, makes it difficult to rank him as a Latino Legend afterwards--it strikes me as an odd revisionism as both a Latino and a historian of the game."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 August 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

That's seems fair.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

I agree.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 26 August 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

history SHOULD be revised.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 21:26 (twenty years ago)

nobody claims when some baseball nerd discovers an extra rbi!

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 26 August 2005 21:26 (twenty years ago)

Yes well I understand your point of view too, stence, but that fact that both sides have arguments that are pretty sensible makes it seem pretty obvious (to me anyway) that this is NOT the greatest MLB public relations fuck up ever.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 August 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)

Imagine the ballot with Ted added. Then imagine the 3 OF winners in the voting being Manny, Sosa, and Ted -- with Clemente out of the money. THEN, my friends, the PR fun begins!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 27 August 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

y'all have compiled some seriously scary shit in your lists of 2005's most fucked up moments, but how can you omit Alter Bridge's prelude to the Home Run Derby?

serious recomendation : Howard Bryant's 'Juicing The Game'

Gerard Cosloy (Gerard Cosloy), Sunday, 28 August 2005 16:06 (twenty years ago)

...how can you omit Alter Bridge's prelude to the Home Run Derby?

thankfully i missed it. i can thank the mets for that one.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:39 (twenty years ago)

Stenc, go write-in-happy!

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/fan_forum/latino_legends/ballot.jsp

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

like i ever look at that web site any more.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 8 September 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

I love the discush here. The Sandomir article was fantastic (he's my favorite sportswriter at the Times). He raises terrific, and possibly intractable questions.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 13 September 2005 00:15 (twenty years ago)


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