The LEAD item in the Week in Review, no less ... basically for civilians, but intriguing on a visibility level. I have a feeling "Mind Game" is gonna do real well.
Analogies for being called 'arrogant' by LaRussa...?
To Play Is the ThingBy DAVID LEONHARDT
BASEBALL has always been the most literary of sports, but it never managed to produce an intellectual fight worthy of the term. For most of its existence, writings on the game tended toward the poetic, like John Updike's "Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu," a farewell to Ted Williams, or toward statistical minutiae.
This summer, however, the sport has found itself in the equivalent of a theological dispute about whether baseball is a game of mystery or of data, of statistics and analysis or of intuition and human instinct.
Like any good intellectual spat, this one involves high-brow questions and low-brow insults - in this case, dumb, narrow-minded and even unloving. It also has attracted interest from fields as far from the dugout as medicine, Hollywood and Wall Street, which find themselves grappling with the same question as baseball managers: When information can be gathered more cheaply and quickly than ever before, should people rely less on their hunches and more on numbers?
"I've been sat down and told they can give me a better way to do everything," Tony La Russa, manager of the St. Louis Cardinals and the hero of a new book celebrating the hunch, said last week, describing the statistics crowd. "They really are convinced that they can sit there and crunch out a formula that negates my power of observation."
"It's been a little irritating," La Russa added, "because there's a certain arrogance with that whole group."
It began two years ago, with the publication of "Moneyball," the Michael Lewis best seller about the Oakland A's, whose general manager, Billy Beane, used quantitative tools to keep his team near the top of its division every year, despite having less to spend than many competitors.
All the while, Beane marveled at the inanity of baseball's old ways, like judging prospects by body type instead of performance. Beane's success, and that of Lewis's book, brought even more number-crunchers into front offices, often at the suggestion of a team owner who had read "Moneyball."
Last year's World Series victory by the statistics-centric Boston Red Sox set baseball's old guard even farther back on its heels. The lessons of their championship will be enumerated next month with the publication of "Mind Game: How the Boston Red Sox Got Smart and Finally Won a World Series," written by the staff of Baseball Prospectus, a Web site that is to baseball's reformation what The Public Interest was to the rise of conservatism.
The traditionalists, who still dominate the scouting ranks, many front offices and the baseball media, have mounted a counterreformation this year with two books of their own. The first, "Three Nights in August," by Buzz Bissinger portrays La Russa as a master at tinkering with players' psyches.
He tries to bring out the best from an underachieving player, and he decides which pitchers should be briefed about the opposing lineup before a start, and which should simply go out and throw.
The second traditionalist text, "Scout's Honor," by Bill Shanks celebrates the scouts of Atlanta Braves, a profession that often serves as Beane's foil in "Moneyball." The Braves have won 13 straight division titles, Shanks writes, by letting their scouts find the players with the best "makeup," a baseball catch-all for hustle, attitude and heart.
Shanks is openly contemptuous of the Lewis book, writing, "the brash disregard for scouting in its truest sense as portrayed in 'Moneyball' was just as insulting to me as it was to so many scouts around the game."
Academic research, however, is pretty much on the side of statistics. Whether diagnosing patients or evaluating job candidates, human beings vastly overestimate their ability to make judgments, research shows. Numbers and analysis almost always make people better.
"There have been hundreds of papers on subjects from picking students for a school to predicting the survival of cancer patients," said Richard Thaler, a University of Chicago economist who uses sports examples in his class on decision-making. When a computer model is given the same information as an expert, the model almost always comes out on top, Thaler said.
Baseball's new analysts say that teams rely too much on instinct and received wisdom, which leads to things like the overuse of the sacrifice bunt and the drafting of high-school players.
In a speech to a group of investment bankers shortly after "Moneyball" appeared, Paul DePodesta, then Beane's deputy, called baseball a game where you were supposed to sit on your behind, "spit tobacco and nod at stupid things," borrowing a remark from a retired pitcher named Bill Lee.
"It became clear to us that the inefficiency in decision making in baseball was vast," said DePodesta, who played baseball at Harvard and led the Los Angeles Dodgers to the playoffs last year, his first season as their general manager.
The early record suggests that the reformers have found a real edge, if not a fool-proof method. The small-budget teams that depend most on analysis - Oakland, Toronto, Cleveland - are among the only ones in the playoff picture this year.
But their record is hardly spotless, the old guard happily notes. Beane has never won a playoff series, and DePodesta's Dodgers are struggling this year. The Braves are in first place again, despite Baseball Prospectus's many predictions of their imminent demise. So are La Russa's Cardinals
The most entertaining part of the battle is the charges and countercharges. Bissinger, for example, writes that the number crunchers do not truly love the game because they do not appreciate its lore or its human ingredient, a claim Lewis called absurd.
Indeed, what makes this fight truly comparable to those that periodically roil the worlds of art history or foreign policy is that the differences between the sides aren't as great as the sniping between them suggests.
La Russa spends much of his time jotting down information on index cards and studying statistics in his office, while members of the new guard often say the future belongs to teams that combine number crunching with scouting and injury prevention.
"The 'Moneyball' kind of stuff has its place, but so does the human," La Russa said by telephone from Pittsburgh. "Really, the combination is the answer."
But reaching that happy medium is likely to prove more difficult, and more interesting, than talking about it. The Cardinals, after all, created a statistical analysis department in the last two years, but La Russa said it had "almost zero effect" on his strategy. He wishes the team had instead spent the money on new video equipment.
Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)
Why do the kneejerk anti-Moneyball idiots not understand this?
― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 29 August 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)
probably for the same reason the kneejerk pro-Moneyball idiots don't, either.
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:43 (twenty years ago)
Even the most knee-jerk pro-Moneyball people have a better than basic understanding of the fact that human idiosyncrasies are very very important to the game of baseball. Hell a good % of the book Moneyball is devoted to MAPPING those idiosyncrasies!
i agree. but it's kinda disingenuous for dudes who spent a good portion of that book, say, knocking scouts to be all flabbergasted when scouts actually take offense at their portrayal.
lemme be clear, i'm not on either side. the moneyball stuff is fascinating AND it shoulda been implemented in MLB long ago. but it is not the end-all, be-all of the game (nor do i think anybody at ilb is suggesting it as such).
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:48 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:50 (twenty years ago)
The view of scouts was a tad cartoonish in "Moneyball," but I took it that was more Lewis shaping the story than a pure reflection of Oakland's philosophy -- last time I checked they had a scouting dept.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:54 (twenty years ago)
― Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)
(A) never read
or
(B) completely misinterpreted it.
― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)
Stenc (and Jams if you're not in DC all week), I'm tempted to play it hour-by-hour re Mets this week since no two weather forecasts seem to agree (they wind up playing a day-night pair on Thursday?).
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)
Like Morbs said upthread, this is totally a strawman opinion -- a fabrication. I've never heard anybody say that we should look at numbers and nothing else. Sure, lots of people are obsessed with numbers and never talk about anything else (mainly because they don't understand scouting anymore than scouts understand numbers), but that's not the same thing.
― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:12 (twenty years ago)
― Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:15 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:00 (twenty years ago)
haven't read it myself yet.
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)
― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:44 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)
― Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)
Look at Grady Sizemore. He's a smallish, white ("scrappy") guy with a little pop and a little speed. So naturally he would play for... Mark Shapiro's team! How about Julio Franco? He's a slow, old base clogger who plays first base for... you guessed it! The hunch-erific Atlanta Braves!
How about Tim Hudson. Only last year, he was a short dude whose body probably wouldn't hold up to the rigors of pitching. Now, he's an overpaid "proven veteran" for the Braves.
Jocketty traded for Larry Walker, a big slow slugger. Beane traded for Kendall, a gritty ("white") and surprisingly quick leadoff machine who "does all the right things", despite not hitting many home runs.
Proven scouting genius Brian Cashman has loaded up his team with sluggers with arthritis (Sierra, Giambi, Olerud last year). Boy math genius Theo Epstein has loaded up his team with sluggers with arthritis (Petagine, Millar, Olerud this year).
I mean, what's the difference?
― polyphonic (polyphonic), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)
also you seem to have some misconceptions about the philosophies themselves - everybody likes sluggers, tho i do suppose statheads would be more inclined toward the arthritis type (ie one dimensional mashers, tho this has changed w/ increased understanding of defensive value)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)
Beane's gamble on Hudson was that he wasn't likely to be worth ace $$$ for 5-6 years, and that's still the way to bet. If someone calls him a 'proven veteran,' OK, but that means only so much for the future.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)
My point is not that Cashman is one thing or that Schuerholtz is another. Essentially, they're all trying to field a collection of five toolers who do everything well.
In essence, both the Braves and the A's are remarkably similar. They both try to limit their big contracts to their best players and focus heavily on the minor leagues.
― polyphonic (polyphonic), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:49 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)
At the time of printing it seemed that Beane was primarily focusing on the above qualities, the reality is that the market quickly shifted and Beane was able to adjust on the fly.
― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)
Wildly different philosophies can be applied to the same players. Statheads will look at Jason Giambi, note that he's an on-base machine who walks a lot even when his avg isn't up to snuff, and claim that the benefit of his high OBP renders his glacial speed fairly irrelevant.
Joe Morgan looks at Giambi and says its his job to be a run producer and get hits with runners in scoring position.
Both camps appreciate the fact that Giambi has home run power.
Anyway -- there are lots of different ways to look at it, but there's only one Giambi.
― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)
i believe the a's value or valued strikeout to walk ratios (ie not just walk rates) pretty highly, at least in young players and maybe across the board, so i doubt it's entirely coincidental.
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)
Alex though, AJ Pierzynski? Need I remind you? :-P
― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:37 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)
i don't believe that, and unfortunately i can't refer to the Text since i don't have it anymore. more bb's will lower your k/pa, but not yr k/ab.
an alternate way of looking at it is that more walks = deeper counts = more k's. dunn, abreu, edmonds, giambi would support that theory. whatever the case i doubt more walks = less k's (per ab).
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:55 (twenty years ago)
And yeah a lot of sluggers have higher than normal walk rates not because they are actually super selective (although obv plenty are) but also because they collect more intentional walks and unintentionally intentional walks than guys who don't hit for power which boosts their OBP plenty.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)
Someone should tell Brian Sabean this!
― Leeeeeeee (Leee), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:03 (twenty years ago)
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:33 (twenty years ago)
This is the best line in the whole article!
Yeah, find me the "numerical data only" advocate (unless it's some nitwit salesman doing a pitch)
Oh hey - I know someone like that, an old roommate. I think he's a "professional" gambler now.....
― The Popish Plot (dymaxia), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)
Beane recently said his valuing of low batter K rates are the biggest change in his philosophy since taking over the A's.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)
so did la russa become less of an overmanager, since his teams actually win, or is this analysis bunk?
― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 16:54 (twenty years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:09 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:28 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)
Or, as a former boss of mine would say... analyzation.
― boldbury (boldbury), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)