the 'hunchers' vs the 'statistics crowd' (NY Times Week in Review)

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The LEAD item in the Week in Review, no less ... basically for civilians, but intriguing on a visibility level. I have a feeling "Mind Game" is gonna do real well.

Analogies for being called 'arrogant' by LaRussa...?


To Play Is the Thing
By DAVID LEONHARDT


BASEBALL has always been the most literary of sports, but it never managed to produce an intellectual fight worthy of the term. For most of its existence, writings on the game tended toward the poetic, like John Updike's "Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu," a farewell to Ted Williams, or toward statistical minutiae.

This summer, however, the sport has found itself in the equivalent of a theological dispute about whether baseball is a game of mystery or of data, of statistics and analysis or of intuition and human instinct.

Like any good intellectual spat, this one involves high-brow questions and low-brow insults - in this case, dumb, narrow-minded and even unloving. It also has attracted interest from fields as far from the dugout as medicine, Hollywood and Wall Street, which find themselves grappling with the same question as baseball managers: When information can be gathered more cheaply and quickly than ever before, should people rely less on their hunches and more on numbers?

"I've been sat down and told they can give me a better way to do everything," Tony La Russa, manager of the St. Louis Cardinals and the hero of a new book celebrating the hunch, said last week, describing the statistics crowd. "They really are convinced that they can sit there and crunch out a formula that negates my power of observation."

"It's been a little irritating," La Russa added, "because there's a certain arrogance with that whole group."

It began two years ago, with the publication of "Moneyball," the Michael Lewis best seller about the Oakland A's, whose general manager, Billy Beane, used quantitative tools to keep his team near the top of its division every year, despite having less to spend than many competitors.

All the while, Beane marveled at the inanity of baseball's old ways, like judging prospects by body type instead of performance. Beane's success, and that of Lewis's book, brought even more number-crunchers into front offices, often at the suggestion of a team owner who had read "Moneyball."

Last year's World Series victory by the statistics-centric Boston Red Sox set baseball's old guard even farther back on its heels. The lessons of their championship will be enumerated next month with the publication of "Mind Game: How the Boston Red Sox Got Smart and Finally Won a World Series," written by the staff of Baseball Prospectus, a Web site that is to baseball's reformation what The Public Interest was to the rise of conservatism.

The traditionalists, who still dominate the scouting ranks, many front offices and the baseball media, have mounted a counterreformation this year with two books of their own. The first, "Three Nights in August," by Buzz Bissinger portrays La Russa as a master at tinkering with players' psyches.

He tries to bring out the best from an underachieving player, and he decides which pitchers should be briefed about the opposing lineup before a start, and which should simply go out and throw.

The second traditionalist text, "Scout's Honor," by Bill Shanks celebrates the scouts of Atlanta Braves, a profession that often serves as Beane's foil in "Moneyball." The Braves have won 13 straight division titles, Shanks writes, by letting their scouts find the players with the best "makeup," a baseball catch-all for hustle, attitude and heart.

Shanks is openly contemptuous of the Lewis book, writing, "the brash disregard for scouting in its truest sense as portrayed in 'Moneyball' was just as insulting to me as it was to so many scouts around the game."

Academic research, however, is pretty much on the side of statistics. Whether diagnosing patients or evaluating job candidates, human beings vastly overestimate their ability to make judgments, research shows. Numbers and analysis almost always make people better.

"There have been hundreds of papers on subjects from picking students for a school to predicting the survival of cancer patients," said Richard Thaler, a University of Chicago economist who uses sports examples in his class on decision-making. When a computer model is given the same information as an expert, the model almost always comes out on top, Thaler said.

Baseball's new analysts say that teams rely too much on instinct and received wisdom, which leads to things like the overuse of the sacrifice bunt and the drafting of high-school players.

In a speech to a group of investment bankers shortly after "Moneyball" appeared, Paul DePodesta, then Beane's deputy, called baseball a game where you were supposed to sit on your behind, "spit tobacco and nod at stupid things," borrowing a remark from a retired pitcher named Bill Lee.

"It became clear to us that the inefficiency in decision making in baseball was vast," said DePodesta, who played baseball at Harvard and led the Los Angeles Dodgers to the playoffs last year, his first season as their general manager.

The early record suggests that the reformers have found a real edge, if not a fool-proof method. The small-budget teams that depend most on analysis - Oakland, Toronto, Cleveland - are among the only ones in the playoff picture this year.

But their record is hardly spotless, the old guard happily notes. Beane has never won a playoff series, and DePodesta's Dodgers are struggling this year. The Braves are in first place again, despite Baseball Prospectus's many predictions of their imminent demise. So are La Russa's Cardinals

The most entertaining part of the battle is the charges and countercharges. Bissinger, for example, writes that the number crunchers do not truly love the game because they do not appreciate its lore or its human ingredient, a claim Lewis called absurd.

Indeed, what makes this fight truly comparable to those that periodically roil the worlds of art history or foreign policy is that the differences between the sides aren't as great as the sniping between them suggests.

La Russa spends much of his time jotting down information on index cards and studying statistics in his office, while members of the new guard often say the future belongs to teams that combine number crunching with scouting and injury prevention.

"The 'Moneyball' kind of stuff has its place, but so does the human," La Russa said by telephone from Pittsburgh. "Really, the combination is the answer."

But reaching that happy medium is likely to prove more difficult, and more interesting, than talking about it. The Cardinals, after all, created a statistical analysis department in the last two years, but La Russa said it had "almost zero effect" on his strategy. He wishes the team had instead spent the money on new video equipment.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

"The 'Moneyball' kind of stuff has its place, but so does the human," La Russa said by telephone from Pittsburgh. "Really, the combination is the answer."

Why do the kneejerk anti-Moneyball idiots not understand this?

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 29 August 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, find me the "numerical data only" advocate (unless it's some nitwit salesman doing a pitch)... Sheehan said in a BP chat last week, "I hate, with a passion, the idea that guys who embrace performance analysis love numbers and not baseball. That somehow not buying into clutch, or understanding how an offense works, makes your love of the game less. That's so much more arrogant than any position I, or anyone I know, has ever taken."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

Why do the kneejerk anti-Moneyball idiots not understand this?

probably for the same reason the kneejerk pro-Moneyball idiots don't, either.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

Sez the guy who wants Clemens to rack up some WINS before he can be Cy-eligible this year!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Even the most knee-jerk pro-Moneyball people have a better than basic understanding of the fact that human idiosyncrasies are very very important to the game of baseball. Hell a good % of the book Moneyball is devoted to MAPPING those idiosyncrasies!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:43 (twenty years ago)

i don't want clemens to win the cy! wtf?

Even the most knee-jerk pro-Moneyball people have a better than basic understanding of the fact that human idiosyncrasies are very very important to the game of baseball. Hell a good % of the book Moneyball is devoted to MAPPING those idiosyncrasies!

i agree. but it's kinda disingenuous for dudes who spent a good portion of that book, say, knocking scouts to be all flabbergasted when scouts actually take offense at their portrayal.

lemme be clear, i'm not on either side. the moneyball stuff is fascinating AND it shoulda been implemented in MLB long ago. but it is not the end-all, be-all of the game (nor do i think anybody at ilb is suggesting it as such).

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:48 (twenty years ago)

My fav line in Moneyball is the one where Beane is talking to Chad Bradford about God and pitching btw (although the one about getting arrested for "porno" is pretty funny too.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:50 (twenty years ago)

I didn't mean to paint you as J.Mo, Stenc (for those of you who caught last night's Jon Miller foolery).

The view of scouts was a tad cartoonish in "Moneyball," but I took it that was more Lewis shaping the story than a pure reflection of Oakland's philosophy -- last time I checked they had a scouting dept.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:54 (twenty years ago)

whatever you do, DON'T read scout's honor. i've been trudging through this piece of shit for weeks now. the worst book i've ever read. (it has NOTHING to do with baseball)

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

Moneyball is like the bible in the sense that it's a widely referenced book that many of its outspoken critics/devotees have either:

(A) never read

or

(B) completely misinterpreted it.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

O Joe Morgan, cast out the beam in thine own eye... We've been fully warned on Scout's Honor!

Stenc (and Jams if you're not in DC all week), I'm tempted to play it hour-by-hour re Mets this week since no two weather forecasts seem to agree (they wind up playing a day-night pair on Thursday?).

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)

i don't think i could do thursday but wednesday's still possible.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

probably for the same reason the kneejerk pro-Moneyball idiots don't, either.

Like Morbs said upthread, this is totally a strawman opinion -- a fabrication. I've never heard anybody say that we should look at numbers and nothing else. Sure, lots of people are obsessed with numbers and never talk about anything else (mainly because they don't understand scouting anymore than scouts understand numbers), but that's not the same thing.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:12 (twenty years ago)

i am gonna be around this week, morbs, but i don't think i'll be able to catch a game. which blows.

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 29 August 2005 16:15 (twenty years ago)

anyone read 3 nights in august? i think it's about to get loaned to me. i'm hoping it won't be awful.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:00 (twenty years ago)

i'm gonna put this here as well: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/27/AR2005082701172.html

haven't read it myself yet.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

one thing i've always been surprised by (and this is maybe horribly arrogant) is that managers always seem to do a very good job of adapting to their environment (and yeah i'm sure there are loads of exceptions) on both macro and micro levels - the art of baserunning all but died as soon as the live ball era began, not to be revived until the second dead ball era in the late 60s, and now it's gradually sinking back to pre-brock levels. at the same time i think both showalter and robinson (tho it's sketchier here) are correct in their strategies; a nationals game is like turning the baseball clock back 40 years.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)

It is my belief that John Schuerholz keeps a stathead locked in a small room somewhere using threats of family dismemberment to keep him productive.

Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:44 (twenty years ago)

i see little evidence of that, i think the braves are a classic example of a scouting & development team. which is why it's really too bad that scout's honor is apparently so terrible - there's a huge amount of potential in that story, at least for hardcore baseball fans.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

there's nothing about scouting! it's all "the braves are good because we draft nice atlanta boys." and that's it!!!

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 29 August 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

My sole book purchase at the SABR convention was "Weaver on Strategy," and Ol' Earl's "art of baserunning" certainly wasn't steal steal steal. His advocacy of the 4-man rotation and carrying NINE(!!) pitchers on the staff makes him read like the Anti-LaRussa. (I've seen Bobby Cox righty-lefty himself out of a win Captain Hook-style too.) It'd be interesting to hear from Earl about his old tactics being marketed under a new umbrella.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

The thing about all of this that's weird to me is that it isn't like there's some huge discrepancy between the make-up of the hunch teams and the stats teams.

Look at Grady Sizemore. He's a smallish, white ("scrappy") guy with a little pop and a little speed. So naturally he would play for... Mark Shapiro's team! How about Julio Franco? He's a slow, old base clogger who plays first base for... you guessed it! The hunch-erific Atlanta Braves!

How about Tim Hudson. Only last year, he was a short dude whose body probably wouldn't hold up to the rigors of pitching. Now, he's an overpaid "proven veteran" for the Braves.

Jocketty traded for Larry Walker, a big slow slugger. Beane traded for Kendall, a gritty ("white") and surprisingly quick leadoff machine who "does all the right things", despite not hitting many home runs.

Proven scouting genius Brian Cashman has loaded up his team with sluggers with arthritis (Sierra, Giambi, Olerud last year). Boy math genius Theo Epstein has loaded up his team with sluggers with arthritis (Petagine, Millar, Olerud this year).

I mean, what's the difference?

polyphonic (polyphonic), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

you're cherry picking not only players but attributes! and you're mixing up stat/scout philosophies, i think. kendall is (or was) an on base machine, cashman's an obp guy, the cards have a strong saber contingent, sizemore was a v highly touted draft pick and a damn good player - i don't think statheads discriminate once they've found that latter quality.

also you seem to have some misconceptions about the philosophies themselves - everybody likes sluggers, tho i do suppose statheads would be more inclined toward the arthritis type (ie one dimensional mashers, tho this has changed w/ increased understanding of defensive value)

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

Ditto Dahlem on Cashman; the Yanks have been playing "sabermetric," walk-heavy offense for about 10 years. The Prospectus annual's Blue Jays chapter this year (by Joe Sheehan) warned against labeling franchises 'enlightened' or not (as a reaction, partly, to the Koskie signing and other headscratchers). No teams have one kind of player.

Beane's gamble on Hudson was that he wasn't likely to be worth ace $$$ for 5-6 years, and that's still the way to bet. If someone calls him a 'proven veteran,' OK, but that means only so much for the future.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

Look I know that Cashman is an OBP guy, and that the Cardinals value sabermetrics, and that Kendall gets on base, and etc. I'm saying that this is all hogwash. You can find stereotypical "Moneyball" players (big slugger dudes and short pitchers, for example) on plenty of "old school" teams, and vice versa.

My point is not that Cashman is one thing or that Schuerholtz is another. Essentially, they're all trying to field a collection of five toolers who do everything well.

In essence, both the Braves and the A's are remarkably similar. They both try to limit their big contracts to their best players and focus heavily on the minor leagues.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

what exactly do you expect they might do otherwise??

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:49 (twenty years ago)

you're looking at this in an intensely superficial manner - obv all GMs want superstars and all GMs want to develop young players and no GMs want to hand out huge contracts to mediocre players. if that's all you're saying, i agree. but if you're arguing that the a's would be more or less the same team w/ 'holz or cashman or i dunnno bowden at the helm, you're way way off.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)

polyphonic, "Moneyball" players aren't necessarily lumpy sluggers that are defensive liabilities nor short pitchers with awkward deliveries, it's about exploiting market inefficiencies and finding value where it comes cheapest.

At the time of printing it seemed that Beane was primarily focusing on the above qualities, the reality is that the market quickly shifted and Beane was able to adjust on the fly.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

and these inefficiencies are often discovered by and evaluated w/ computers. (think obp/speed/defense)

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

You can find stereotypical "Moneyball" players (big slugger dudes and short pitchers, for example) on plenty of "old school" teams, and vice versa.

Wildly different philosophies can be applied to the same players. Statheads will look at Jason Giambi, note that he's an on-base machine who walks a lot even when his avg isn't up to snuff, and claim that the benefit of his high OBP renders his glacial speed fairly irrelevant.

Joe Morgan looks at Giambi and says its his job to be a run producer and get hits with runners in scoring position.

Both camps appreciate the fact that Giambi has home run power.

Anyway -- there are lots of different ways to look at it, but there's only one Giambi.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

BTW has anyone discussed the fact that the A's don't strike hardly at all? Do people think that's pure coincidence or was that a previously hidden statistical gem that Beane & Co. found? It seems logical, yes? Less strikeouts = more BIP. More BIP = more pressure on the defense = more base hits/errors = more runs.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

yeah i was also v curious about that & i'm extremely surprised no one's looked into it yet (to my knowledge). they're still last in the majors by a good margin.

i believe the a's value or valued strikeout to walk ratios (ie not just walk rates) pretty highly, at least in young players and maybe across the board, so i doubt it's entirely coincidental.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

a component of OBP is selectivity of pitches which leads to low strike out rates. this was touched on at-length in Moneyball.

Alex though, AJ Pierzynski? Need I remind you? :-P

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)

I don't get it. Did AJ write an article on not striking out?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)

AJ was a complete BIP dude in 2004 on the Giants, striking out only 27 times and yet(thus?) leading the league in GIDPs.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)

Yeah but he also never ever walked (unlike the A's who still manage a very respectable amount.) Also I don't think the A's are close to the league lead in GIDP, but I'd be interest in seeing that stat discussed as well.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:37 (twenty years ago)

Actually the A's are close to the league lead in GDP. Tied for 4th with 115. 7th in walks with 448.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)

"a component of OBP is selectivity of pitches which leads to low strike out rates"

i don't believe that, and unfortunately i can't refer to the Text since i don't have it anymore. more bb's will lower your k/pa, but not yr k/ab.

an alternate way of looking at it is that more walks = deeper counts = more k's. dunn, abreu, edmonds, giambi would support that theory. whatever the case i doubt more walks = less k's (per ab).

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)

and oakland's walk rate isn't excessive to my knowledge, so i think there's probably something else going on.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:55 (twenty years ago)

I don't think there is necessarily correlation btw walks and strikeouts. Some people strikeout a ton and walk very little. Some people walk a lot and strikeout very little. And some people do a lot of both. And some people do very little of either.

And yeah a lot of sluggers have higher than normal walk rates not because they are actually super selective (although obv plenty are) but also because they collect more intentional walks and unintentionally intentional walks than guys who don't hit for power which boosts their OBP plenty.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

Oakland's walk rate is good, but it's not Red Sox or Yankee-ish (although the A's IBB--and UIIBB--rate is I imagine much lower.) The A's have a pretty adept lineup at getting on base (esp. for the $$.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

In George Will's baseball book "Men At Work" has a section that follows LaRussa and pitching coach Dave Duncan back when they were with the A's. One of the main thrusts of the section was how LaRussa and Duncan did statistical analysis of match ups between hitters and pitchers. There was something about this huge book of matchups they would consult during games to make decisions and how this was alien concept to some other teams at the time.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

obv all GMs want superstars and all GMs want to develop young players and no GMs want to hand out huge contracts to mediocre players.

Someone should tell Brian Sabean this!

Leeeeeeee (Leee), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:03 (twenty years ago)

That's where the article goes wrong, too - LaRussa's index cards (from what I understand) have little or nothing to do with usable statistical analysis. They're charting minutiae that then allows LaRussa to overmanage his way out of games (as Doc M alludes to).

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:33 (twenty years ago)


Baseball Prospectus, a Web site that is to baseball's reformation

This is the best line in the whole article!

Yeah, find me the "numerical data only" advocate (unless it's some nitwit salesman doing a pitch)

Oh hey - I know someone like that, an old roommate. I think he's a "professional" gambler now.....

The Popish Plot (dymaxia), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

That's half the best line!

Beane recently said his valuing of low batter K rates are the biggest change in his philosophy since taking over the A's.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

wow. why isn't bp on this?

John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

It's been mentioned...One of the writers said it would've been nice if someone had asked BB about it in his recent chat.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

I'm really curious about the numbers behind that reevaluation. BP get on it!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

They're charting minutiae that then allows LaRussa to overmanage his way out of games.

so did la russa become less of an overmanager, since his teams actually win, or is this analysis bunk?

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

which is to say, yeah, he overmanages, but i don't know if it can rightly be said to take st.l out of games considering they had the best record in mlb (last i checked).

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 16:54 (twenty years ago)

Irony of ironies - during last year's World Series, dude probably UNDERmanaged (cf. leaving slumping guys in to slump, finding new & exciting ways to ignore John Mabry, dopey pitching non-decisions a la Art Howe).

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:09 (twenty years ago)

yeah that's probably true.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)

It's possible that a team that wins 95 games SHOULD win 100. I think the sabermetric guess is that a manager's tactics making a difference in 5 games is a lot. (Don't have the Biill James managers book handy.)

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:28 (twenty years ago)

uh isn't five games a pretty small sample size? and is a preoccupation with what should happen somewhat counter-productive (not to mention unfun)? i mean, the red sox should have lost to the yankees in the alcs, but they didn't, etc.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

Oh, analysis does not equal fun -- bah! I know at least one of the Prospectus guys, Goldman, just thinks LaRussa could use his bullpen far more efficiently and carry more hitters on the roster (which might come in handy, say, when you're getting swept in the World Series).

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Oh, analysis does not equal fun

Or, as a former boss of mine would say... analyzation.

boldbury (boldbury), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

Morbius, how DARE you & that "Goldman" character question TLR's need for a 4th catcher and 8th LOOGY!

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)


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