Thought rings of saturn was great, happy to read random facts about silkworms, late chinese empire, conrad, weird people he met in ireland once. The travelogue and melancholic/ironic aspect put me in mind of Robinson in Space, after which I couldn't help but read it in Paul Scofield's voice - maybe that contributed to my enjoyment. It was wilfully obscure in places but that only really annoyed me once or twice, in particular when he was visiting his friend michael hamburger and started going on about holderlin, about whom i know nothing anyway, in a way that was obviously extremely tied up with hamburger's thoughts and feelings, about which i know less than nothing, have no desire to know about, and wouldn't know where to go looking if i did. Otherwise i thought the obscurity contributed to a somewhat dreamlike quality.
― ledge, Monday, 20 April 2015 13:08 (nine years ago) link
1. This is a story about the most courteous act of hostility I've ever witnessed. This came from the author W.G. Sebald.— Sandra Newman (@sannewman) September 5, 2017
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 6 September 2017 00:06 (six years ago) link
That's a great story. Sebald is one of those authors I feel I should like more than I do...
― Zelda Zonk, Wednesday, 6 September 2017 00:44 (six years ago) link
i just realized that i read that the other day thinking it was about thomas bernhard
― j., Wednesday, 6 September 2017 05:25 (six years ago) link
Lol
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 6 September 2017 05:30 (six years ago) link
Ben Lerner's review of the recently published Sebald biog in the NYRB was great btw. Certainly seems more worthwhile than the book.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 11 October 2021 22:37 (two years ago) link
The only one I've read (so far!) is Austerlitz, the edition with James Wood's handy intro (he's also got a couple of Sebald commentaries on lrb and newyorker). Looking at the takes on other books here, I suspect he's even more self-aware here, deliberately putting (most of) his own persona/voice in the narrator's occasional encounters with the long and winding, musically associative, gradually and compulsively accruing momentum of Austerlitz the outsider pilgrim---results: beautiful (go A. go). What a swan song.
― dow, Monday, 11 October 2021 23:31 (two years ago) link
Putting most of it in the narrative-within-the narrative, I mean, as in Heart of Darkness.
― dow, Monday, 11 October 2021 23:33 (two years ago) link
thought this would be about - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/w-g-sebald-speak-silence-carol-angier/620180/
― just sayin, Tuesday, 12 October 2021 03:39 (two years ago) link
Though Oyler talks about her problems with Sebald in the first place she also makes the biography sound appalling.
I spent three months and several hundred euros trying to like Sebald. @Harpers is reimbursing me for the latter, but in the course of the former several men I know suffered irreparable emotional damage https://t.co/gwGxAN9Bhy— Lauren Oyler (@laurenoyler) November 15, 2021
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 16 November 2021 13:00 (two years ago) link
Just started Rings of Saturn. Intriguing
― Urbandn hope all ye who enter here (dog latin), Tuesday, 16 November 2021 19:05 (two years ago) link
Just finished Rings Of Saturn. I found its ambiguous fictionality distracting and its fleeting observations on death and impermanence to be at times overly ephemeral, but his extended riffs on eg the stately home in Ireland, or Swinburne, were delicious and haunting in their own right. How you say - a wunderkammer, with the silken remnants of its covering-cloth still intermittently visible.
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 13:32 (two years ago) link
god the innumerable ways lauren oyler is bad
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 13:37 (two years ago) link
I was reading the book already, because my friend spends much time on the Suffolk coast and had persuaded me to do so along with him; it is also a book that my girlfriend was able to lend me, having also read it relatively recently. Having finally completed it, do I find myself now tasked with reading a lengthy critique of the writer, which appears to begin with a to-scale parody?
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 13:48 (two years ago) link
if you like the extended riffs, the ones in austerlitz are even more elegaic imo.
― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 13:53 (two years ago) link
The parody shouldn't have been there, but once she gets down to it I can see why I didn't entirely get on with Sebald (apart from his book of essays) a long time ago now.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:01 (two years ago) link
Thank you - I shall definitely read it.
Even if I customarily prefer my extended riffs laced with antic absurdity or satire (the latter half of The Last Samurai makes for an intriguing companion perhaps, no matter how unfair it is to put DeWitt's monument under the same looking-glass as any other poor piece of fiction), the sheer memento mori of TROS had a particular sobering effect I can only see as edifying
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:03 (two years ago) link
And it wasn't without charm, or mischief
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:04 (two years ago) link
Here is Mark Fisher on Sebald.
As a counterpoint, here is Mark Fisher making the identical complaint about Sebald in Suffolk. https://t.co/zxeXEgI5Lj pic.twitter.com/Absntwwh3P— Ryan Ruby (@_ryanruby_) November 17, 2021
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:24 (two years ago) link
(Think I've seen it mentioned MF didn't like him but hadn't seen a passage.)
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:25 (two years ago) link
So, wait, is the complaint that Sebald emphasizes towns and vistas in decline?
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:26 (two years ago) link
lmao i do not care what mark fisher thinks about sebald. capitalism, sure
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:30 (two years ago) link
thought*
The complaint is that he is not paying attention to what he's looking at xxp
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:31 (two years ago) link
i frankly don't understand that complaint at all
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:31 (two years ago) link
He doesn't dwell on Suffolk for very long at a time, but it really is above all a framing device
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:32 (two years ago) link
it's a tapestry, one observation ends up being part of a warp and weft of memory and history, which... idk, i don't know who reads these books expecting them to be actual travelogue, sounds like some imposed shit
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:34 (two years ago) link
also fake accounts is such an awful book that i think oyler has no business parodying sebald, admittedly i am in my feelings here
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:35 (two years ago) link
I don't understand either. It's hilarious how Fisher compares Sebald's walking tours with James' when James noticed a lot of decline too.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:35 (two years ago) link
Perhaps the transitions between the Suffolk-walk frame and the discursions on hubris and impermanence are the weaker parts of his conceit, and they do at times distract (the bit about the sandstorm near the end was fairly ludicrous and frankly unbelievable) but hey, it got him writing
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:36 (two years ago) link
It also amuses me that it came out at around the same time as Bill Bryson's Notes From A Small Island
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:39 (two years ago) link
I am uninterested in Oyler's fiction though I like some of her essays. Admittedly, this is one of her weaker ones.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:43 (two years ago) link
It’s often said that Sebald’s work haunts, and is haunted. Do I like this? Not really, no. At times the gloom approaches parody—towns tend to be eerily abandoned, landscapes are shrouded in fog; even a passing car can’t escape without becoming “the last of an amphibian species close to extinction, retreating now to the deeper waters.” In projecting a ridiculous gravitas onto modern life, he might effectively emphasize its absence, but he often literalizes the metaphor in a way that diminishes its poignancy; reading Sebald, one can forget that death entails loss as well as the memory of what is gone. I wonder if I could somehow blame him for the number of people who seem to actually believe in ghosts.
god what the fuck is this
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:44 (two years ago) link
her essays are structured like fucking tweet threads
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:46 (two years ago) link
Yeah that's completely wrong. TROS is full of the idea of things being lost forever
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:46 (two years ago) link
And while he may sometimes slightly overplay his gloomy hand, as with the sandstorm, that his visions lead directly to (at times artfully embellished) lessons from history mean they don't overwhelm. It's not like you're wading through similes for 200 pages (hello, Housekeeping)
― imago, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:50 (two years ago) link
reading Sebald, one can forget that death entails loss as well as the memory of what is gone. I wonder if I could somehow blame him for the number of people who seem to actually believe in ghosts.
I guess I read the story of Henry Selwyn wrong.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:51 (two years ago) link
"even a passing car can’t escape without becoming “the last of an amphibian species close to extinction, retreating now to the deeper waters.”"
Ok..
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:51 (two years ago) link
See, I don't find Sebald gloomy. The tone reminds me of Isherwood's of all people: he places himself in situations where he can watch people and things or recount events with poignantly ironic engagement.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:52 (two years ago) link
Oyler is complaining about the gloom approaching parody.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:54 (two years ago) link
i mean, i did visit berlin a few years ago and read vertigo the entire time so i am not beyond self-parody here
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 14:57 (two years ago) link
He's consciously working in a gothic tradition, right? It seems like that involves keeping gravitas and parody in tension.
― jmm, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:10 (two years ago) link
i did find tros to be a little too sadboi for me. since i'm already a sadboi, i like my sadboi to be a bit less generalized and amorphous? less radiohead, more robert wyatt. the sadboi in austerlitz is attached to a more concrete idea of cultural trauma so i find it more convincing. i'm losing some of my memory of tros though, it's been a year.
― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:14 (two years ago) link
for sure Austerlitz is his most fully realized book. I was afraid I'd think of it otherwise when I read it during lockdown in 2020 but -- nope.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:19 (two years ago) link
i've been meaning to read the emigrants or vertigo next but i'm not sure which one to go with first.
― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:31 (two years ago) link
emigrants!!! vertigo feels def like the first book he wrote in this style but emigrants refines it in every way
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:33 (two years ago) link
thanks for the tip
― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:36 (two years ago) link
I'd go Emigrants -> Austerlitz -> ROS in that order
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:39 (two years ago) link
The Rings of Saturn is such a singular book, that essay was pretty badly written and misses the point completely. It is very funny to start it with an Americanized bad parody though, what an idiot. I remember being like 19 or 20 and having to finish a college essay very quickly and doing the same thing (writing the essay in the voice of Rings of Saturn probably mixed with Gaddis' Agape Agape). Years ago a friend and I were at a bar talking about how it's probably impossible for Americans to write in certain styles, like, in an American version of Austerlitz where would the characters meet, in Albertsons?
― Bongo Jongus, Wednesday, 17 November 2021 15:48 (two years ago) link
at a hilton in austin - work conference
― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 17:11 (two years ago) link
spend every sentence inserting "like" and "y'know" and "the Dolphins suck"
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2021 17:13 (two years ago) link
i'm trying to read rings of saturn and i really don't get it. the writing and observations don't seem interesting enough to carry the peripatetic structure. i find it very dull and impossible to focus on (it should be noted that i get dumber with each passing year). what am i missing?
― na (NA), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 15:31 (one year ago) link
Maybe try Austerlitz.
― dow, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 17:26 (one year ago) link
austerlitz is better and much more memorable imo
― ꙮ (map), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 17:58 (one year ago) link
thirding Austerlitz. I had the same trouble you did, n/a.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 18:01 (one year ago) link
Austerlitz is a better book imo
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 18:23 (one year ago) link
you gotta kinda be losing your mind or going through a divorce to get in the rings of saturn zone, then it's pretty funny
― Bongo Jongus, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 18:45 (one year ago) link
I was about to type this out again lol
Years ago a friend and I were at a bar talking about how it's probably impossible for Americans to write in certain styles, like, in an American version of Austerlitz where would the characters meet, in Albertsons?
― Bongo Jongus, Wednesday, November 17, 2021 7:48 AM (one year ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Bongo Jongus, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 18:46 (one year ago) link
lol at rings of saturn behing a divorced guy book
― ꙮ (map), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 19:31 (one year ago) link
It took me so long to read and finish Rings Of Saturn. It wasn't until towards the end that I realised why it was so slow going. I hadn't noticed how idiosyncratic and exhausting a lot of the sentences were for a start. And yeah, often the subject matter veers strongly into "Why should I care? Why is this important?" or simply "Where are you going with this?" And yet somehow I'm glad I did read it. I don't think I'll forget it in a hurry.
― the forces of darkness making making us laugh ourselves into DEATH?? (dog latin), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 19:51 (one year ago) link
Austerlitz definitely the better book but Rings of Saturn is still extraordinary. Twinned with Last Year at Marienbad in my head.
― Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 21:51 (one year ago) link
I like the whole cult that's grown up around Rings of Saturn 'walks' and, despite the intimate knowledge he had of the landscape, the number of odd elisions and outright geographical falsifications Sebald included in the book.
― Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 21:54 (one year ago) link
there’s a whole fucking biography of joseph conrad in the middle of this thing
― na (NA), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 23:25 (one year ago) link
hell yeah there is
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 23:46 (one year ago) link
otm
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 2 March 2023 00:40 (one year ago) link
that's the grandest part
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 2 March 2023 00:41 (one year ago) link
the passages about the now-lost North Sea fisheries are peculiarly affecting
― Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S), Thursday, 2 March 2023 09:49 (one year ago) link
i made myself finish rings of saturn. there were some chunks in the middle that i got into just as interesting as historical anecdotes. but i found the book as a whole very tedious and i'm still in the woods re: the point
― na (NA), Monday, 13 March 2023 14:17 (one year ago) link
the segment i liked was joseph conrad/roger casement/the chinese dowager princess/the old english manor that is crumbling with the old family still living in it. but i still feel like i would have gotten just as much out of reading the wikipedia page on casement e.g.
― na (NA), Monday, 13 March 2023 14:20 (one year ago) link
Also I had to order a Borges anthology and break to read some of that halfway through
― the forces of darkness making making us laugh ourselves into DEATH?? (dog latin), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:42 (one year ago) link
I have read it convincingly argued that the concluding section of TROS is all holocaust-related, but I can't find the article
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:15 (one year ago) link
Almost all of it seems to be atrocity-related at least
― the forces of darkness making making us laugh ourselves into DEATH?? (dog latin), Monday, 13 March 2023 18:46 (one year ago) link