Come talk about Milton's Paradise Lost with me! [lawsuit proof?]

"Satan neither cops to the existence of god nor picks the fight..."

(Cause yeah, there's stuff like Faust and the Devil Went Down to Georgia -- but in the album I'm squawking about god is out of the picture, AND man sort of picks the fight with Satan. Maybe there are great examples of this too, but none of them want to bubble to my surface...)
Who Will Survive and What Will Be Left of Them is the album; it's by Murder by Death.

Also, any other random thoughts/babbling/interpretation of the poem would be fun... it's always been one of my favorite things ever, I'm not sure why... it just seems that once you get into the rhythm of Milton it's like slipping into an incredibly big cosy warm swimming pool. I'm really angry about the modernization of the spelling in my Norton issue (which they sacked me with at college). Comparing it to the non-modernized versions on the Internet, I find it stinks like cheap cigar butts marinated in stale Coors. The spelling of his era really isn't very confusing; actually, it's EASIER to read the lines with their rhythm and look left as the author intended. Why the hell did they turn a book into lit-in-translation when it didn't need to be????? Did the Norton people watch a bunch of Young Ones episodes and decide they weren't exaggerated for comic effect and that students really are that stupid, and/or that Milton's sense of aesthetics had nothing to do with why he chose to use the exact words he did, and/or that the way he wanted it too sound wasn't really very important??? ARGGGGGGGGGG!!! HE WAS BLIND, NOT TONE DEAF!!!!!! Am I just being an anal (and hung over, oh christ is hungover spelled open or closed...) proofreading Nazi or is this really really horrible?

La Tentation de Saint Antoine - Gustave Flaubert
Melmoth the Wanderer - Charles Maturin
The Brothers Karamazov - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Private memoirs and confessions of a justified sinner - James Hogg
The Master and Margerita - Mikhail Bulgakov
Man and Superman - GB Shaw
The Demon - Mikhail Lermontov
A Drama of Exile - Elzabeth Barret Browning
Les Fleurs du Mal - Charles Baudelaire
Cain - Byron
Dr Faustus - Christopher Marlowe
The York and Chester Mystery Cycles

And finally, if you fancy really screwing your head up, take a look at these, all by William Blake:
The Marraige of Heaven and Hell
The Book of Los
The Book of Thel
The Book of Urizen
Th Book of Ahania
Visions of the Daughters of Albion
Europe: a prophecy
America: a prophecy
Milton
Jerusalem
The Four Zoas

There are a number of 'Satanic' characters in these works who fight man/other beings. The symbolism is as heavy and as obscure as it gets, though.

x-post to your previous post

Well possibly. I s'pose if JM secretly took Satan's side that would mean one hell of a lot of biographical revisionism; a whole industry would spring up out of the need to explain JM's covert Gnostic beliefs and his ability to maintain a sham puritan mask in public.
If, on the other hand, JM found, as he went along, that he had created a strong character, and, in his pride and delight, felt more sympathy and curious sense of compratiotship with him, then that's something that any writer will attest happening. I doubt JM intended that when he started, but he was no fool either, and knew that 'justifiying the ways of God to men' (a superhuman claim of course) would involve some, shall we say, 'theological difficulties' being disentangled/justified.

x-post

(heheh x-post with yours... thank you very much for that answer as well, I always thought the "this is more interesting so he must be arguing for this character on purpose" argument was a little bizarre... )

I might be remembering that wrong, though.

As PL starts, Satan and his band of fallen angels are burning in pools of lava in Hell after being banished from Heaven.

The very title to "Angel" can be seen as a reference to the former state of Satan et al. The song also has themes of descent, given the predominant bass and lines such as, "You are my angel / Come from way above." Obviously, the angel in question has descended, perhaps because of the Fall. Horace Andy also sings, "Neutralize, every man in sight," establishing a menacing purpose of the Angel. Satan's aim, revealed in later books in PL, is to corrupt or destroy Adam and Eve, or in effect, thereby "neutralizing" them.

Satan flies up out of Hell to look for a rumored new world that houses God's newest and most precious creation in order to wreak vengeance on God. Along the way, he encounters the sun and speaks a soliloquy. "Risingson" then puns on this event, where Satan "rises" up to meet the "sun."

The mechanized howling beginning "Risingson" also creates a diabolical sense. These sounds are reminiscent of actual, natural howling, but have obviously been synthesized and distorted. Thus, the song reveals its intent on deception, much like Satan's methods, which include taking on other forms to escape Heavenly detection. Satan later tricks an angel guarding the gate to Eden by appearing as a cherub (a low ranking angel) and much later in the shape of a serpent seduces Eve into eating the Forbidden Fruit.

The scene in PL shifts to God and his Son. He explains why he has imbued in his newest creation, Adam, with free will, which the rest of the angels lack. He wants obedience from His subjects only if they give it to Him voluntarily. "Teardrop" evokes a Heavenly setting with its cascading harpsichord and the ethereal voice of Liz Fraser. Her first words are, "Love, love is a verb, / Love is a doing word." Love according to her requires action and agency -- the
will to do a certain thing. One doesn't simply love, but must act for love's sake. Liz's "love" then corresponds to the Man's love for God, which similarly isn't a predetermined force. Man wasn't created with love for God, but he may choose to love Him or not, and this choice is part of Man's free will. He must utilize and act upon his free will to love God, thereby making "love... a doing word."

I'm going to have to skip some other songs, mostly because their correspondence to PL is murky, but also cos I don't have that much time today.

"Black Milk" has a lot of food imagery, obviously, perhaps a reference to the Fruit. Liz sings something to the effect, "I'm not your food... Eat me / within the space / of my heart." If you eat Liz, the results bear upon her heart, or her soul. The results of eating the Fruit are similar. Eat it, and one not only gains knowledge, but your soul will become mortal (either because of the Fruit itself or the consequences of eating it, e.g. punishment from God). The ghostly piano bit reinforces the fragility of the situation with the Fruit.

Once Adam and Eve have both eaten the Fruit, lust overwhelms them and they have carnal sex. Afterwards, they feel great shame and begin blaming each other for the present deplorable state. In the title track, D sings as a chorus, "All these are flaws." This line is an admission of faultiness, and runs parallel to the realization of Adam and Eve that they are no longer the perfect, innocent creatures they were before, but capable of sin. The very name of the track, "Mezzanine," indicates the arrival to an important point in the story. As a correspondence to PL, it is the point where Adam and Eve are no longer in their former state of grace but are still in Eden for the time being.

"Group 4," especially the second half of the song, represents the banishment of the two from Paradise. Liz sings as beautifully as ever, yet this time she sings over swirling, psychedelic and sinister guitars, which are indicative of a new visceral and mortal setting (outside of Eden). The guitar could also be the flaming sword barring entrance back into Eden, which I've always pictured as floating in space, waving back in forth as the guitars seem to indicate. Liz, often as the voice of Heaven on the album, sings as a reminder to Adam and Eve of the beauty that they've lost and they can do nothing but continue into the visceral world. Liz stops singing before the guitars end, implying that the guitars are more immediate (in terms of physical proximity) to the lives of Adam and Eve than Heaven.
***
Near the very end of PL, Eve feels supremely bad about not being in Eden anymore. However, Adam reassures her that their banishment is for the best of mankind. After all, he says, it is her offspring that will trample the head of the serpent that led them to this exile. More importantly, though, from her the eventual Savior of humanity will spring. This view comes from a Christian/Catholic concept of the Fortunate Fall (of Adam and Eve). If they had not been expelled of Eden and had remained there (and remaining immortal), Christ would never have been born or even needed.

The title to the last track on Mezzanine, "(Exchange)," immediately connoting an afterthought because it is paranthetical. One might even consider this paranthetical title to indicate a conclusion or resolution to the album, and it is in this vein that it corresponds to the end of PL. Moreover, the water imagery (the sampled strings floating upwards, the bubbling synths), traditionally a symbol of rebirth and/or salvation, is a reference to the salvation of humanity through the Savior.

Finally, the song ends, but the track still has several seconds of silence. When all the music ends, there remains a blank canvas where the MA allow the listener to inherit the load of the album, and the silence is a transition from the album to the reality that exists beyond the album. The silence recalls then Adam and Eve leaving Eden, having inherited the Earth and the prophecy of the Savior.

The thing about Milton's treatment of the uprising of the angels is that it can be seen to parallel the English Revolution - Charles I was believed to be a divinely-appointed king, and the revolt was against what the Parliamentarians considered to be usurpation and abuse of power on the part of the King and his Archbishops. And Milton was on the Parliamentarian side - there's some need for him to 'justify' the act of revolt in the poem, even if it's being done against God.

'Milton and the English Revolution' might be worth a read.

I obviously fall into all of Milton's snares and love him nonetheless.

Book 8, with all the astronomical stuff, brings me tangible pain. And it's a combination of my shitty self-taught research skills and more cosmic hurt that means the 95% of the articles I can find about Adam...are about how fucking rad Raphael is in this book. Why does everyone seem to think Raphael is an excellent pedagogical model? Like this is *the* *worst* answer to "Universe: Ptolemaic, or maybe not?"

This to attain, whether Heav'n move or Earth,
Imports not, if thou reck'n right, the rest
From Man or Angel the great Architect
Did wisely conceal, and not divulge
His secrets to be scann'd by them who ought
Rather admire; or if they list to try
Conjecture, he his Fabric of the Heav'ns
Hath left to their disputes, perhaps to move
His laughter at their quaint Opinions...

"Hey, I'm not gonna tell you, don't try to think about it, if you do God will laugh at you." And yet this is like some hallmark of instructive discourse? If this is the model, no wonder I hate my Milton professor so much.

Seriously, I am on the verge of tears right now.

Milton set himself an impossible task, to justify the ways of God to Man, while not straying from whatever the Bible said were God's ways. Unlike Aquinas, who set out to do the same thing by a different path, Milton had to address the beginnings of systematic science.

You can see how well he did. When facts fail, trundle out a rhetorical smokescreen. Basically, that was his only choice. Or admit that the Bible was a compendium of fairy stories, no different than paganism, Judaism, Islam, or heretical Christianity. He couldn't do that, obv. So smokescreen was the way to go.

Don't get too het up over it. It's poetry.

Also, he's really skeptical of reason acting on its own (see II, 557-569). Thinking baout stuff leads to bad places if not aligned with god (eve's reasoning via the serpent p sound - animal ate of tree: it can now talk; therefore I eat of tree, I will be awesome). It's another of his tightrope acts - 'right reason' an aid to the godly, but lives next to vain/idle speculation.

i think the 'you're supposed to like satan until you realize how bad he is' thesis falls flat on its face once you realize that the god in paradise lost ranks right down there with ken lay and joseph stalin on the list of guys you'd like to have in charge of anything. his speeches in book III are terrifying.

anything by william empson, and the essays on this guy's site -- http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~draker/purpose.html -- are essential reading for anyone who finds the current critical consensus on 'PL' a bit stifling.

Oh man J.D. thank you for that. I was looking at Milton's God in the library today before I saw your post, actually, and it was the one of 40 or so books I picked up that didn't make me insane. (I think part of my pain here is the Mormon church, the church I grew up in and basically hate, has like a whole book of doctrine, The Pearl of Great Price, that's basically PL fanfic. It is hard not to get flashbacks. Plus the bulk of crit on PL is also pretty damn misogynist, against its own intent sometimes.)

By which I mean, 39 books were *arrrgh why* and Empson seemed reasonable.

I mean it's one thing for 17th cent. homie Milton to be using Eve as a vessel for fears of all things woman....but quite another for plenty of people after 1970 to keep pouring into it.

Plenty of people after 1970 were and are flaming assholes. This is proved by science. And by the LDS Church on a daily basis.

Stanley Fish has written a few good Milton essays.

I tried rereading PL a couple of years ago...ended up skipping ahead to Raphael explaining how angels have sex.

funny, i've been listening to these while doing some grinding work

http://academicearth.org/courses/milton

the very first lecture deals with power and misogyny so this might be more up your alley than whatever your prof is telling you. milton was, for his time, a raving left wing radical, even though now he is a pillar of conservatism within the english canon. that's interesting in itself.

re: the bit you quoted:

This to attain, whether Heav'n move or Earth,
Imports not, if thou reck'n right, the rest
From Man or Angel the great Architect
Did wisely conceal, and not divulge
His secrets to be scann'd by them who ought
Rather admire; or if they list to try
Conjecture, he his Fabric of the Heav'ns
Hath left to their disputes, perhaps to move
His laughter at their quaint Opinions...

raphael doesn't know the answer here, cos milton doesn't know the answer! but for all the finger wagging here, it's curious to me that raphael doesn't actually say that "if they list to try/ Conjecture" they won't come up with anything useful or even factual, just that it will always result in "disputes"

My faves footnote from PL: "Milton would not have been unfamiliar with what we today call 'hair fetishism.'"

IDK, Milton went out of his way to meet Galileo in person...I think he would have been pretty sure of a heliocentric universe! I figured all the vacillating in Book 8 was to avoid political trouble.

I have on received wisdom that my (basically universally reviled) prof is operating from the thesis that Milton was a feminist. You wouldn't guess it from all his really gauche old man jokes about his "three girlfriends," though. Everyone says you can get an instant A if you argue for the 25-page final paper if you do a feminist reading of Eve, but I don't think the poem supports one.

Writing a 25 page paper about this poem ––– following the general stylistic tradition I've seen in criticism of capitalizing the F in Fall (of mankind)...all making me wish I was writing about the band The Fall.

The Fall of Mankind is capitalized because it was the Foremost Event in the History of Our Kind, and comprises the Moment when Man lost his Purity, Innocence and Unimpeachable Claim upon God's Divine Mercy!

However, if this does not strike you as a wondrously convincing argument for perpetuating an archaic Typographical Convention, then I would consider including an Explanatory Footnote at the First Instance, and proceeding to flaut the Received Tradition throughout the remainder of your paper.

*96 tears*

Also the "it's just a poem" argt falls apart if you agree w/my homie William Blake: “If historical facts can be written by inspiration Miltons Paradise Lost is as true as Genesis or Exodus.”

Milton you do not deserve so much of my blood.

I would like to write 25 pages about the flying dog demons

That come off of Sin??

what?

this is one of those things I really need to revisit. I am also psyched because I picked up the only norton critical edition of this w/ a white cover instead of a purple cover .

yes xp

I think I would feel embarrassed though looking at all the stuff I underlined. if I could go back in time I would tell my college self don't underline, don't give in to peer pressure.

“If historical facts can be written by inspiration..."

Blake was often very difficult to distinguish from a madman. This makes him intriguing to be sure, but a sketchy authority on historical facts.

That Blake quote is great bcz if you believe in the Bible or not, it works either way! The man was a gem.

Also dyao: always underline. Never don't underline.

Maybe you feel like how I feel when I see what I underlined in the Book of Mormon in high school.

six more pages

it is like dry heaves at this point

abbott I just picture herzog saying that v. sternly and lol'd

<3

I guess what bugs me is seeing how sloppy I am at drawing a straight line in general. if I could reproduce perfectly ruler-straight lines at command I wouldn't mind so much. I bet I wouldn't have trouble underlining on an iPad.

Haha yes, I always feel kinda silly selling back books, thinking of the sorry student who will buy it: sorry I underlined crossed out everything I liked here.

I'm squeamish and can't bear to read books that others have marked up. Ugh.

― alimosina, Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:05 PM

In fact, I don't even like to touch them.

The only thing worse than underlining is highlighting.

Milton! thou shouldst be living at this hour:
England hath need of thee

three pages left and nothing to say that's germane
someone light a candle for me

oh I get it you're actually writing the paper, huh. well you should probably start arguing whether or not milton is a viking at writing religious poetry.

"The Viking of Flying Dog Demons: dyao on Paradise Lost"

I don't care what the thread title says, I'm suing the shit out of each one of you.

Abbot, I don't even need to read a page of that paper to know it gets an A

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118024218.html?categoryid=13&cs=1
:O

The project tells the story of the epic war in heaven between archangels Michael and Lucifer, and will be crafted as an action vehicle that will include aerial warfare, possibly shot in 3D.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fOAniV0ksF8/S8ui9rbq1VI/AAAAAAAAAGs/XH0qugmoMlQ/s1600/blake_satan.jpg

'What do you mean, once more, but this time with feeling?'

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2011/05/bradley-cooper-considered-for-paradise-lost-film.html

The movie should just be based on Book 8.

i was thinking about starting a book poll recently actually haha. i'm really fond of 2-4

With thee conversing I forget all time,
All seasons and their change, all please alike.
Sweet is the breath of morn, her rising sweet,
With charm of earliest birds; pleasant the sun
When first on this delightful land he spreads
His orient beams, on herb, tree, fruit, and flower,
Glistering with dew; fragrant the fertile earth
After soft showers; and sweet the coming on
Of grateful evening mild, then silent night
With this her solemn bird and this fair moon,
And these the gems of heav'n, her starry train:
But neither breath of morn when she ascends
With charm of earliest birds, nor rising sun
On this delightful land, nor herb, fruit, flower,
Glistring with dew, nor fragrance after showers,
Nor grateful evening mild, nor silent night
With this her solemn bird, nor walk by moon,
Or glittering starlight without thee is sweet.

otm

#damnYo

milton was the fuckin' business, man

I hadn't read the whole thing in years - I'd sit around and read a chunk every now and again, but it was haphazard, and I'd end up on 1 and 2 more than the other books. But
I started going to the gym and listening to the unabridged Naxos PL while I'm there and it has been a massive fucking joy. Book 7 and The Creation I'd basically forgotten, really magnificently strange the animals emerging from the soil, "The grassy clods now calved" etc.

man it must be coming up on ten years since i read this, what

the visions shown by michael in book 11 (and 12?) i remember being the most breathtaking bit, milton really just showing off there

the audiobook thing sounds a good idea. epic poetry being read aloud seems the right way to ingest it.

Great thread! Reminds me of this, re metal adaptation of Dante (surprisingly affecting, maybe because it's not too "theatrical")
http://clclt.com/charlotte/symptoms-of-life/Content?oid=2141550