like what? i ask
― Nhex, Thursday, 4 April 2013 03:40 (eleven years ago) link
eg deforge, rilly, huizenga, hanawalt, fiffe, koyama in general
― Devendra Bumhat (sic), Thursday, 4 April 2013 06:29 (eleven years ago) link
I can't believe people think Bendis is the best Avengers writer since Thomas... He pretty much tore apart everything that was unique about Avengers, brought in his pet characters, most of whom had little to do with the team's history, and wrote every character as if they were in gritty cop show and not a superhero comic. (Seriously, when it came to characterization, pretty much every character was interchangeable with someone else.) Which meant no more grandiose cosmic adventures and stuff like that, which had previously been the Avengers' forte, because they didn't fit Bendis' "realistic" vision. Sure, there were some good individual storylines, but the crossovers were increasingly bad, culminating with Siege which was just one massive fight with no rhyme or reason.
Even though it had some hacky moments and misfires (mostly the attempt to deal with racial and religious issues, which was a noble failure), in my opinion Busiek's Avengers run has been the best extended run of the title since Thomas' days. He knew what made the Avengers special, instead of writing it like a generic superhero book with interchangeable members, like Bendis did.
That said, I have been enjoying Bendis' current X-Men run so far. Seems like the gimmick of the old, more innocent X-Men time-traveling to the present day has toned down the gritty/hard-boiled tendencies of his writing, which is a refreshing change.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 4 April 2013 07:23 (eleven years ago) link
brought in his pet characters, most of whom had little to do with the team's history
ie exactly what roy thomas and steve englehart did! every new avengers writer has a mandate - duty! - to reinvent the team according to their own tastes and fancies.
Busiek's run basically is roy thomas revisited - i prefer the illusion of change under bendis.
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 4 April 2013 08:04 (eleven years ago) link
Well sure, but AFAIK those characters weren't popular ones with a lot of baggage (like Spider-Man or Wolverine) or writer's pets (like Luke Cage). Even if earlier writers introduced new team members, they still managed to do "Avengers style" stories with them, whereas Bendis simply took characters he liked, or characters that sell titles, and did stories that have little to do with previous Avengers legacy. I guess if you don't care that much about this "Avengers style" and like Bendis' particular set of tropes, this isn't a problem, but for me he was ill-fitted for the title.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 4 April 2013 09:57 (eleven years ago) link
I think if he tore down the old version, that was the point though?
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:14 (eleven years ago) link
Spider-man and Wolverine are overexposed because they don't have a lot of baggage - quips + agile + web shooters / claws + loner + drinks are sufficiently good handles to tell a story with them.
Also you are possibly the only person in the world who gives a shit about the idea of "Avengers legacy" - it's a dumping ground of unloved characters + the big guys.
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:20 (eleven years ago) link
x-post
i've been reading Avengers comics for more than thirty years Tuomas, so I think 'care' about the title as much as you do. i just don't have some platonic idea of an Avengers comic, or think there's only one way to write Avengers comics (I mean, at base, the Avengers just = some of Marvel's most popular characters all together in one comic. Which is why I don't have a problem with Wolverine or Spider-Man being members.)
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:21 (eleven years ago) link
Fair enough; it's just that to me Bendis' writing tics (the hard-boiled dialogue, the "realism", the way he treats superhero comics as if they were police or military fiction, the intechangeable personalities) are pretty much the opposite of what I like in superhero comics (cosmic sagas, high adventure, colourful characters, optimism), and what I've enjoyed in earlier Avengers comics. Bendis might've been a fitting writer for a title like Daredevil, where "realism" and grittiness were already an established part of the title, but I've never thought such qualities were what the Avengers was about.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:48 (eleven years ago) link
Haven't you ever come across angry Internet commentary on how Avengers Disassembled ruined the Scarlet Witch, ruined Vision, shat on Busiek's earlier reconstruction of the title, etc? My comments on this thread are pretty mild compared to how many others felt about Bendis and the Avengers.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:53 (eleven years ago) link
Bendis really should have stopped after Siege, though. Everything after was just embarrasing.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 4 April 2013 11:32 (eleven years ago) link
nah, red hulk storyline was great!
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 4 April 2013 11:35 (eleven years ago) link
I'd also put Steve Englehart and Roger Stern up there for Avengers writers.
The best Bendis' Avengers comics were still the ones about the villains. The Dark Avengers storyline, which was pretty much the sequel to Warren Ellis' Thunderbolts, I thought was the best read. I think the early blowing up of the Avengers and the early arcs up to the Civil War are pretty good, but later on the stories got pretty streched out.
People gripe about his 'pet characters' but really what creator doesn't have some in super hero comics. I thought how he used Luke Cage was pretty great myself. As for the Scarlet Witch, the only thing Bendis did was just take it to an end - as the whole "Wanda is kinda nuts" storyline goes back 30+ years. I still think it would have been better idea to have had it to be Loki during the whole Ragnarok end of Thor story to be the key to set Wanda loose and destroy the Avengers (as afterall Loki is the manipulator of the Marvel U and he unwittingly created them), but hey everyone want's to blame\use Dr. Doom.
― earlnash, Thursday, 4 April 2013 11:51 (eleven years ago) link
As for the Scarlet Witch, the only thing Bendis did was just take it to an end - as the whole "Wanda is kinda nuts" storyline goes back 30+ years.
The thing is, this had already been resolved by earlier writers; during Busiek's run, for example, Wanda came to a deeper understanding with the nature of her powers, and she is also shown to remember her kids. But all of this development is ignored by Bendis: all of a sudden Wanda doesn't remember the kids anymore, she's crazy again, her powers don't work the way everyone thought they would... This is one of the biggest reasons why people thought Bendis shat on Busiek's run, and ruined Wanda. And it's not like Wanda was essential to the whole storyline, Bendis could've easily used several other characters to achieve the same ends, and without discarding the work of previous writers.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:30 (eleven years ago) link
And let's just say I'm not one of those people who think Continuity Is God and should never be tweaked, but on the other hand completely ignoring it is a bit shitty too, since continuity is one of the things that makes the Marvel and DC universes different from comics with original characters, so if you don't care about it, you should probably be writing your own characters and not ones with decades of history.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:35 (eleven years ago) link
New Avengers/Secret Avengers better than Avengers proper in the Bendis era.
Hickman seems to be doing pretty good stuff. I really liked his Secret Warriors as well.
― I, rrational (mh), Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:23 (eleven years ago) link
The Warren Ellis Secret Avengers issues might be my favorite Avengers of recent vintage, but depending on where Hickman goes (and whether or not stupid mandatory events derail him) he could top that handful of issues with ease.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:37 (eleven years ago) link
Also almost any way of dealing with DC/Marvel characters involves ignoring a lot of their continuity as there's decades of it and it varies wildly in tone and content.
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:56 (eleven years ago) link
Secret Avengers was a good but really frustrating book. I was intrigued by the plot Brubaker started, but then he left. Ellis was great, but very short. Remender seemed like he was telling an interesting story as well, but I haven't finished it. And then it was bogged down in tie-ins all the time.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 4 April 2013 16:13 (eleven years ago) link
It suffered for the fact the plot arc got fumbled through to a finish several writers later
― I, rrational (mh), Thursday, 4 April 2013 19:20 (eleven years ago) link
"all of a sudden Wanda doesn't remember the kids anymore, she's crazy again, her powers don't work the way everyone thought they would..."
There was always supposed to be some big reveal on 'why' it happened and I guess there is some flashbacks in that Young Avengers series to the why being Doom messing her mind.
That's why I think it would have been better to have revealed it either at the time tying it straight into the end of the original Thor title being that Loki is the one that both caused her new bout of insanity and perhaps even the power up being tied to Ragnarok as it was part of him wanting to punish Thor by destroying the Avengers.
Just that to me would have been a cool way to tie it back towards what had gone on before.
Really the got to blow up the characters like Wanda, Vision, Wonder Man, Hawkeye, Hank Pym etc. as they can't really go big with the solo title stars 'usually'.
I think the whole Civil War kind of screwed up Bendis' momentum on the title. It sold a ton of issues, but it made his Avengers very different for like a few years. It also didn't help that while there was some good buildup and back story both Siege and definitely Secret Invasions were total punts as storylines. The actual mini-series just weren't that good at all and nothing much really happened. I think sometimes they would be smarter just doing it as a crossover between the regular titles and not having that extra mini-series or completely integrating it into some 52 style series, but hey they are about selling comics not necessarily telling a good story.
― earlnash, Thursday, 4 April 2013 19:23 (eleven years ago) link
Well, Loki would have made a whole lot of sense, but Loki was a small child when Young Avengers came out, and the laws of comics say that whomever is found out to be responsible has to be punched repeatedly in the penultimate issue. So Doom it was.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 4 April 2013 19:38 (eleven years ago) link
You say that like there's a problem with punching child Loki in the face
― Nhex, Thursday, 4 April 2013 19:45 (eleven years ago) link
Aw, Kid Loki is my favorite Marvel character at the moment, along with She-Hawkeye.
But it's more the problem with punishing a character for what he did earlier, even though in the meantime he died (twice) and was resurected as a sorta different person (twice). Hm, I wonder what he will be ressurected as next time. Frog Loki! Horse Loki!
― Frederik B, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:03 (eleven years ago) link
shame kid loki isnt kid loki anymore.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:06 (eleven years ago) link
they grow up so fast
― I, rrational (mh), Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:51 (eleven years ago) link
how long did Lady Loki last? I was reading Dark Avengers and was just like "huh, Loki's suddenly a woman?"
― Nhex, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:57 (eleven years ago) link
Under a year, I think.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:58 (eleven years ago) link
but Loki was a small child when Young Avengers came out,
Wait, what?
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 4 April 2013 23:12 (eleven years ago) link
You haven't read Journey into Mystery? You should, it's one of the best Marvel series of recent years.
I've read Children's Crusade, but to me it felt like more like an author's saving throw than a part of some plan Bendis had originally had, especially since it came out 6 or 7 years after Avengers Disassembled. In AD and House of M, there is no implication at all that Wanda had been manipulated by some outside force (besides Pietro). If this revelation was "always supposed" to happen, you'd think Bendis would've at least dropped some hints towards it?
― Tuomas, Friday, 5 April 2013 06:43 (eleven years ago) link
I read it, but Young Avengers predates it by ~5 years.
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 5 April 2013 07:25 (eleven years ago) link
I don't think it makes a lot of sense to assume that Bendis was overly bothered about tidying up loose ends on traditional Avengers-only characters - he was betting that he would gain more readers than he would lose with a clearing of the decks, and he won that bet handily.
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 5 April 2013 07:33 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, but I think Frederik B was talking about Children's Crusade, which was the series where the whole "Wanda was manipulated" thing was revealed, and which took place while Loki was a kid.
― Tuomas, Friday, 5 April 2013 07:47 (eleven years ago) link
Yup.
― Frederik B, Friday, 5 April 2013 10:32 (eleven years ago) link
Not comics, but damn if I can think of a better thread on which to post this: what looks to be every issue ever of Starlog is now available for free on Archive.org:
http://archive.org/details/starlogmagazine
― brad palsy (Jon Lewis), Thursday, 11 April 2013 16:17 (eleven years ago) link
fuck yes, thank you for pointing this out. now i just need a zip.and another one for Famous Monsters!
― gr8 tr∞lls i have known (forksclovetofu), Friday, 12 April 2013 03:46 (eleven years ago) link
holy hell, they have OMNI!
― gr8 tr∞lls i have known (forksclovetofu), Friday, 12 April 2013 03:49 (eleven years ago) link
This was good, from a few weeks back:
http://www.theawl.com/2013/03/the-future-according-to-1981-an-omni-appreciation
― Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 12 April 2013 08:25 (eleven years ago) link
xpost yeah I noticed OMNI was on there too, fucking sweet
― brad palsy (Jon Lewis), Friday, 12 April 2013 14:56 (eleven years ago) link
It kills my soul that Omni was writing about hydrogen as the alternative to fossil fuels 35 years ago and we're really no closer to the reality.
― The Complete Afterbirth of the Cool (WilliamC), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:15 (eleven years ago) link
wow that site is really a goldmine
― four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 April 2013 16:07 (eleven years ago) link
archive.org?
― gr8 tr∞lls i have known (forksclovetofu), Friday, 12 April 2013 16:09 (eleven years ago) link
it's amazing. Some highlights:
-Tons of Robyn Hitchcock and Mountain Goats live shows-Starlog/Omni-HP Lovecraft audiobooks-Scans of old Weird Tales issues
but i have only scratched the surface
― brad palsy (Jon Lewis), Friday, 12 April 2013 16:17 (eleven years ago) link
oh and
-Dead shows-I Remember Lemuria ebook
― brad palsy (Jon Lewis), Friday, 12 April 2013 16:21 (eleven years ago) link
http://archive.org/search.php?query=charlton%20comicshttp://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Dell%20Comics%22http://archive.org/details/ace-comicshttp://archive.org/search.php?query=quality%20comics%20AND%20mediatype%3Atextshttp://archive.org/search.php?query=archie%20comics%20AND%20mediatype%3Atextshttp://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Aatariforcecomics&sort=-publicdate <-lolhttp://archive.org/details/blazingcombat-warrenhttp://archive.org/details/warren-1984-magazine ("The title of the magazine was changed to 1994 starting with issue 11 in February, 1980 based on a request by the estate of George Orwell.")http://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Awarrenpublishingmisc&sort=-publicdatehttp://archive.org/details/warren-vampirellahttp://archive.org/details/comixinternational
also: http://archive.org/browse.php?field=subject&mediatype=texts&collection=webcomicuniverse
― gr8 tr∞lls i have known (forksclovetofu), Friday, 12 April 2013 16:27 (eleven years ago) link
Well now SOME of those have gotta be technically not kosher? Like Atari Force is surely in copyright (though probly never to be reprinted for the same reasons as marvel micronauts/rom and shang-chi etc)
― brad palsy (Jon Lewis), Friday, 12 April 2013 16:43 (eleven years ago) link
according to very reputable source http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/comics/atariforce/
ATARI FORCE is an expired registered trademark of the original Atari, Inc. Copyright on ATARI FORCE material belongs to either Atari, Inc. (formerly known as Infogrames) or DC Comics, depending on which issue's indica you examine. This web site, its operators, and any content contained on this site relating to ATARI FORCE are not authorized by DC Comics or Atari.
― gr8 tr∞lls i have known (forksclovetofu), Friday, 12 April 2013 17:48 (eleven years ago) link
or more to the point since it's a joint copyright of an unenforced property, nobody seems to care?
― gr8 tr∞lls i have known (forksclovetofu), Friday, 12 April 2013 17:49 (eleven years ago) link
huh! I wonder if the same is true of ROM. (Josh Bayer and Jeffrey Lewis to thread...)
― brad palsy (Jon Lewis), Friday, 12 April 2013 17:55 (eleven years ago) link
i think the spaceknight and dire wraith mythos in xmen kinda botches that
― gr8 tr∞lls i have known (forksclovetofu), Friday, 12 April 2013 17:57 (eleven years ago) link