That is a hell of an impression to have, particularly since he's the original source of Kingdom Come, the Superman from which is above.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:07 (eleven years ago) link
well as tuomas sez, the image is a variant on the old earth 2 superman (with a bit of george reeves thrown in for good measure.) my definition of a grim and gritty superman would be one where he's holding a big gun and acting in a morally dubious fashion - not something i get from that particular image, where he just looks a bit broody (i haven't read the comic.) And in general. ross' work deliberately represents a return to old school values of heroic, noble characters rendered in a realist style, and usually framed as an overt repudiation of the post-dark knight school of superheroics (dark night being the ur-text for all things grim and gritty)
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:14 (eleven years ago) link
A fine and noble view, unburdened as it is by dull facts!
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:31 (eleven years ago) link
It's been while since I read it, but isn't Kingdome Come pretty much against grim and gritty. Isn't the story of KC that older superheroes have been replaced by new, 90s-style gritty heroes, but they turn out not to so heroic, and in the end Superman (who represents the ideals of the pre-grim era) returns, and a new era more idealistic heroes begins again?
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:34 (eleven years ago) link
"they turn out to be not so heroic"
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:35 (eleven years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:31 (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
enlighten me o all-knowing one
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:44 (eleven years ago) link
Okay, I read the synopsis of KC, and I guess the story is a bit more complicated than what I remembered... But my point still stands that Superman is used in it as an antithesis to the gritty 90s style heroes. (And KC is an Elseworlds story anyway.)
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:46 (eleven years ago) link
That's probably the intent, but there is an awful lot of having your cake and eating it in Kingdom Come - the Superman is grim, authoritarian, with a lot of blood on his hands by the end. It's a very deliberate contrast with the regular Superman (who I think may have still been available in Electric Red and Electric Blue)
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:47 (eleven years ago) link
I think I might have to refer you to Wikipedia, Ward - I can't in good conscience recommend that anyone read the story :)
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:50 (eleven years ago) link
i'm happy to accept yr word that kingdom come offers us a grim and gritty superman, fucked if i'm reading a mark waid comic
i know that ross and waid fell out over it, possibly because of the way it depicts the classic DC superheroes, and i think my larger point still stands - that alex ross' imagery is ANTI-grim and gritty (which is not, to my way of thinking, a realist-romantic vision of superheroics of the kind that - kingdom come possibly apart - ross trades in.)
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:56 (eleven years ago) link
Fair enough - I know that Ross brought 'the story' in some form to DC and they got Waid to write it, I am perfectly happy to believe that Waid is responsible for the worst of it.
As to whether it's Elseworld, I'm not sure that would have an effect on the quote Tuomas is addressing, that dark and brooding Superman wouldn't work - this was that, and was hailed as the most significant DC work in a decade, press coverage out the wazoo etc.
The line I really take exception to is "These choices are rarely simple or easy, and he always makes the right choice because that's who he is" - he doesn't Find Moral Fortitude to save the child over the puppy, he outthinks or outpowers the problem to save both. The only notable case I can think of where he actually has a hard choice is Whatever Happened To... where he makes the hard choice and then quits being Superman.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 13:16 (eleven years ago) link
Personally I prefer the bright and bouncy Grant Morrison/Triangle-era Superman rather the than the emo Elsewords versions or the ersatz Peter Parker of the nu-52.
But really the problem isn't Superman the character, as he's ace (underrated, even!) and has a classic supporting cast, but that he's had an incredibly bum set of writers for a while.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 14:51 (eleven years ago) link
I mean, theoretically the in-continuity Superman book should be a coathanger for different one-off genre stories, with the Metropolis characters in the background for more long-form soap opera stories - like Doctor Who or X-Files etc.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 14:56 (eleven years ago) link
^^^ superman should be combo of smug alien and corny all-american boy scout; the 'lo a god walks amongst us' stuff that the recent movies focus on (apparently; haven't seen the new one but i hear it's pretty humorless supes) should be at most color for the climax. if yr superman isn't smiling, making quips, more likable and approachable than batman then you're doing it wrong.
― balls, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:13 (eleven years ago) link
wld def prefer to see a movie derived from all the nutty 60s weisinger stuff - bottle city of kandor, bizarro, the works - than yet more hohum mythic seriousness, although i don't think of superman as being a 'quipster', esp - that's more like a stan lee character trait.
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:30 (eleven years ago) link
Quips are for last panel laughter freeze frames.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:36 (eleven years ago) link
yeah quipster's the wrong phrase, more bemused, reeves had this down.
― balls, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:38 (eleven years ago) link
Basically he should be Christopher Reeve.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:57 (eleven years ago) link
Matt Bomer for Superman?
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:00 (eleven years ago) link
wld def prefer to see a movie derived from all the nutty 60s weisinger stuff - bottle city of kandor, bizarro, the works - than yet more hohum mythic seriousness
agree %1000
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:00 (eleven years ago) link
always felt John Hamm would've been a great Superman but he's a few years too old now
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:01 (eleven years ago) link
Martian hammhunter
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:03 (eleven years ago) link
Jon Hamm should be Deadshot
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:03 (eleven years ago) link
Spider-Hamm, naturally
― Nhex, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:17 (eleven years ago) link
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:00 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark
he looks exactly like cavill!
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:24 (eleven years ago) link
"did they ever try to revamp him to be 90s style gritty hero back then?"
Does giving him a mullet count?
http://www.unwinnable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/SuperPowers.jpg
― earlnash, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 21:35 (eleven years ago) link
was the mullet dan jurgens' fault? i feel like it was
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 22:22 (eleven years ago) link
i would be down with asshole supes but never gonna happen
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 01:27 (eleven years ago) link
It's already happened!
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x5/MacGizmo/Animated/drunk_superman.gif
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 13 June 2013 10:04 (eleven years ago) link
what's that from? i managed to avoid the last supes movie but that looks hella older
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:42 (eleven years ago) link
superman 3, which was terrifying to me as a kid
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:45 (eleven years ago) link
the robot lady gave me nightmares
― Nhex, Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:48 (eleven years ago) link
wow, that does not look like christopher reeve
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:49 (eleven years ago) link
― Nhex, Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:48 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
she was so scary! also, richard pryor synthesizing kryptonite and using tar as the secret ingredient really grossed me out for some reason. i think because he got the idea from a pack of cigs and i was always nagging my parents not to smoke
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:52 (eleven years ago) link
Robot lady scared me too. I think a whole generation was scarred by the sight of Annie Ross being swallowed by wires.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwm11goF531qagpnjo1_400.gif
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:59 (eleven years ago) link
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Superman_III_poster.jpg
Poster = none more eighties
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:40 (eleven years ago) link
i think because he got the idea from a pack of cigs and i was always nagging my parents not to smoke
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4058/4587230373_d04142cbe5_o.jpg
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:51 (eleven years ago) link
Superman III is bad, but at least the way the Good/Evil Superman split is handled is in the spirit of the Weisinger/Silver Age stuff and not as some SERIOUS SUPERMAN IS SERIOUS bullshit
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:56 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, absolutely. Reeve is really, really great as Asshole Superman.
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:57 (eleven years ago) link
Nick O'Teen!
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 16:02 (eleven years ago) link
Shakey OTM
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 13 June 2013 16:42 (eleven years ago) link
Did the mullet coincide with any changes in his personality? In the mullet stories I've read, he's pretty much the same guy except for hair length.
I guess the electric blue Superman was an attempt to make him more of a 90s style hero? Though I'm only familiar with that through Morrison's JLA, so I don't really know what the heck it was all about...
― Tuomas, Friday, 14 June 2013 06:57 (eleven years ago) link
Anyway, it's a perfect example of how well superhero writers/artists are keeping up with the current trends, that when they wanted to make Superman more "cool" in the 90s, they gave him an 80s hair.
― Tuomas, Friday, 14 June 2013 07:00 (eleven years ago) link
Anyone seen the movie and/or read Superman Unchained, then?
Unchained read like a Roger Stern/Dan Jurgens story gone widescreen -- actually, that's not a bad thing -- but was more like a solid issue #341 rather than a BIG FIRST ISSUE. It's a lot more trad than Snyder's work on Batman, but again, that's not actually a bad thing.
The costume is still dreadful though - much worse than the mullet! And Jim Lee's back doing those horrible diagonal frayed panels that are his wont.
― Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 14 June 2013 09:21 (eleven years ago) link
They gave Superman the "mullet" because Dean Cain had long hair at the time he won the job to play Superman. By the time Lois and Clark aired he cut of the hair to look more like Superman. So a long story short DC didn't want new fans to get confused, so they jumped the gun. When the studio was planning on having Dean cut his hair to begin with.
― fit and working again, Friday, 14 June 2013 17:34 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/14/alan-moore-addresses-the-criminality-behind-superman-and-the-comic-book-industry/
― Ward Fowler, Friday, 14 June 2013 20:04 (eleven years ago) link
can anybody else get that to load/summarize it
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 14 June 2013 21:47 (eleven years ago) link
bleeding cool seems to be down
― fit and working again, Friday, 14 June 2013 21:53 (eleven years ago) link
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:57 AM (
he was also for the first and last time sexy as fuck
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 14 June 2013 21:54 (eleven years ago) link
sorry, don't know why that isn't loading
seems to be an excerpt from a larger esay by alan that links the shady nature of pulp publishing w/ the theft of rights etc from creators like siegel and shuster.
― Ward Fowler, Friday, 14 June 2013 21:56 (eleven years ago) link
Martha Kent fanfic. Someone, get this woman a job at DC.http://archiveofourown.org/works/6447187
― Nhex, Monday, 4 April 2016 20:32 (eight years ago) link
heh, that's a fun read
― a lad of balls (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 6 April 2016 14:06 (eight years ago) link
introduced 80 years ago today
― the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 19 April 2018 00:37 (six years ago) link