...wow @ that retcon
― Nhex, Friday, 22 May 2015 18:38 (nine years ago) link
add to that the fact that Magneto does have at least one kid, but it's Polaris
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 18:40 (nine years ago) link
hahaha I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up
― DJP, Friday, 22 May 2015 18:42 (nine years ago) link
just wait for the multiversal version where his first kid never died in a fire
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 18:44 (nine years ago) link
hey, at least Polaris kinda made sense, they have the same powerswhat's worse was the Ultimate version where it was in question whether the twins' father was Magneto or Wolverine, who had a tryst with their mother around the right time. thanks Jeph Loeb!
― Nhex, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:06 (nine years ago) link
Mutants in the Ultimate world were a mess.
― EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:10 (nine years ago) link
ironically since they had an (ostensibly) simpler origin. kind of? i don't know.
― Nhex, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:11 (nine years ago) link
natural mutation vs. genetic manipulation via the Weapon X program and then somehow spreading via a "mutant trigger" thingamabob.
Give me stock 616. Even Earth X Celestial fuckery is better than the Ultimate Universe "messing with Wolverine" origin.
― EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:17 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, the Ultimate version is "the US government made mutants"
616 Wolverine has been completely fucked continuity-wise, and oddly enough, *not* just by the Origin series (although the later issues of that definitely helped). Again, the guy who started the plot down that path was... Jeph Loeb. They at least reversed the idea that Wolverine and other lupoid characters were somehow descended from wolves instead of primates.
I really like what Jason Aaron has done with Thor, but there seriously was a plot where a group decides to get revenge on Wolverine and they hire a group of mercenaries, all of which Wolverine kills.... only to find out they were all his children.
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 19:18 (nine years ago) link
oh yeah, and Wolverine wanted to become a horrible killing machine pre-brain wipe, and he was in fact partially responsible for the Weapon X program melding metal to his bones
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 19:20 (nine years ago) link
wait, what was this "mutant" trigger thingamabob? i think that's where I got lost.
omg that story that sounds awful. how many pups can a Wolverine have?
― Nhex, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:32 (nine years ago) link
stuff like that Wolverine story started the big push that moved me out of being mutant-exclusive and more towards following what the Avengers were doing (along with Sunspot and Cannonball being tapped as Avengers)
― DJP, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:37 (nine years ago) link
they'll always be magneto's kids to me
― “audience participation” otherwise known as “touching” (forksclovetofu), Friday, 22 May 2015 19:37 (nine years ago) link
I think it was in Ultimate Origins? Magneto's parents were part of the program and the changed genome became airborne when Magneto freed Wolverine, thus triggering latent mutants or something? It's been a long time since I read it. It was a mess. Fury was involved too, and I think his blood helped make the Hulk and it's a clusterfuck.
― EZ Snappin, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:59 (nine years ago) link
Reading Ultimate Origins right now. Saying that it's the most coherent of the Ultimatum-related comics I've read thus far is damning with wafer thin praise.
― The Freewheelin' Denny Dillon (Old Lunch), Friday, 22 May 2015 20:25 (nine years ago) link
I think Hickman is the person who loves Cannonball and Sunspot second-best in the world, after DJP
Now Sunspot is rich playboy AIM leader and Cannonball has a kid!
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 20:43 (nine years ago) link
in fairness, Sunspot was always a rich playboy
― DJP, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:58 (nine years ago) link
they basically made him the mutant Tony Stark, which at the end of the day I'm okay with
I'm also glad they're remembering Bobby isn't a dummy, cf the most recent Avengers World and his manipulation of the deposed AIM leaders
― DJP, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:59 (nine years ago) link
He's the angry South American, Cannonball is the joking Southerner-- most writers
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 22:39 (nine years ago) link
Any more thoughts after week 3? Quality control seems to be irregularly high for a summer crossover. I'm enjoying it. Not too much gloom and gore - so far everything seems to be in a very Peter David-esque "cheerful adventure" mould. Battleworld seems like an interesting place to stop off for a few months - unlike most parallel universe stories, it doesn't feel like it's just marking time until the inevitable continuity reset.
And even though I'm not familiar with a lot of the characters, it's all quite beginner-friendly - in content, if not in marketing.
― Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 29 May 2015 12:53 (nine years ago) link
I'm racing toward the end of the Ultimate line (just about to start Death of Spider-Man) so I'll hopefully be caught up somewhat soon. Probably not, but hopefully.
― Dr. Demento's A Thousand And One Parodic Nights (Old Lunch), Friday, 29 May 2015 13:32 (nine years ago) link
(Relating to that: I should say that, while it was overall pretty bad and the infamously awful parts were just as awful as expected, Ultimatum wasn't quite the shitshow I thought it would be (and some of the non-Loeb stuff was all right). My expectations were perhaps a bit diminished, though, since Ultimates 3 honestly is one of the worst comics I've ever read in a lifetime of reading comics. But then I was pleasantly surprised by Ultimate X, which is easily the best Loeb thing I've read. Nothing particularly special but quite a leap in basic storytelling competence, and with some of the most gorgeous work I've seen from Art Adams. I guess even a stopped clock can accidentally crap out a decent story now and again.)
― Dr. Demento's A Thousand And One Parodic Nights (Old Lunch), Friday, 29 May 2015 13:57 (nine years ago) link
Can't remember if this has been linked yet -- http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/secret-history-of-ultimate-marvel.html
(I reached out to Loeb for an interview but was told he would only speak with me if we didn’t discuss Ultimates 3 or Ultimatum.)
― Carly Furiosa (WilliamC), Friday, 29 May 2015 14:18 (nine years ago) link
thanks for the link, pretty good article
― Nhex, Friday, 29 May 2015 17:44 (nine years ago) link
Yeah I enjoyed that too.
― schwantz, Friday, 29 May 2015 18:12 (nine years ago) link
Holy shit that sounds like the worst run ever.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 29 May 2015 19:35 (nine years ago) link
It's a good article, but it's hamstrung by its premise: this is what changed, and it worked, so that must have been what was wrong in the first place. In 1999, "Why has Franklin been a kid for 30 years?" wouldn't even have been in the top ten reasons why not to read Marvel.
Marvel's generally had the right attitude to its age: There's too much story for any even moderately old character, so you use what works, and ignore what doesn't, and if someone reminds you that Nick Fury fought in the second world war then CheesyGrin.gif. It's always DC that's had the fretting about generations and legacies.
― Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 30 May 2015 12:24 (nine years ago) link
I am a little surprised that they missed one of the funniest (because Marvel never has and never has had any shame) consequences of the Ultimate's successful influence on the MCU - Normal 616 Nick Fury's lovechild with an African American woman was found and rose swiftly through the ranks of SHIELD to director, bringing with him a likeness to Samuel L Jackson and his friend Phil Coulson.
― Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 30 May 2015 12:28 (nine years ago) link
that was a heck of a coincidence wasn't it
― like a giraffe of nah (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 30 May 2015 14:58 (nine years ago) link
true - they neglected to point out the effects the movies have had on the books like that silliness
― Nhex, Saturday, 30 May 2015 15:11 (nine years ago) link
I wwonder if it's supposed to be the infinity formula that gave him African American sperm
― tsrobodo, Saturday, 30 May 2015 15:38 (nine years ago) link
Anal retentive comics query: anyone know how to pick up the Miller run of Daredevil with the old Lynn Varley colouring? I've tried with the reoloured version but it's just so bleargh. Even the torr3nce have the shitty 90s colouring.
― Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 1 June 2015 20:51 (nine years ago) link
quarter box iirc
― like a giraffe of nah (forksclovetofu), Monday, 1 June 2015 21:06 (nine years ago) link
LOTS OF REVELATIONS THIS WEEK
― ultimate american sock (mh), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 14:26 (nine years ago) link
Lynn Varley didn't colour Miller's original Daredevil run (I think it was mostly Tatjana Wood) - Varley's first colouring work was on Ronin.
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 14:52 (nine years ago) link
Marvel's generally had the right attitude to its age: There's too much story for any even moderately old character, so you use what works, and ignore what doesn't, and if someone reminds you that Nick Fury fought in the second world war then CheesyGrin.gif.
^^^frustrates me so much that the big two don't commit to this approach. continuity is so fucking stupid.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:12 (nine years ago) link
a little continuity is cool - i like it when characters refer to other characters and other stories i've read. it's just that it doesn't need to be 100% consistent.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:18 (nine years ago) link
yeah, it's fine to use continuity when it serves a narrative purpose - writer wants to refer to x event for y reason, to help frame the story or provide context, sure - but it shouldn't be restrictive or a built-in requirement
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:23 (nine years ago) link
also having been blissfully unaware of Ultimates (I haven't read a Marvel comic since 1991 or so) that article was a helpful summary of what sounds like a bunch of horrible bullshit that I'm glad I avoided
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:24 (nine years ago) link
OTM in general on just ignoring bothersome continuity. But Nick Fury having fought in WWII is awesome in my book. It might need a better explanation than 'infinity formula' but I like the idea of this immortal soldier who has been fighting against remnants of nazis for seventy years. Hickman's Secret Warriors was an awesome book with that idea. Someone probably needs to write a series about how SHIELD fits in with FBI and CIA and COINTELPRO and all that stuff, though. Secret Warriors vol 2! Hickman has time after Secret Wars.
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:26 (nine years ago) link
I actually like the insanity of attempting to maintain continuity over a decades-long project. But at the same time, writers should be able gloss over the stupid stuff without having to do pointless retcons.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:31 (nine years ago) link
some of the coolest stories as of late have been continuity heavy - like RIP which wasn't just drawing from old stories but specifically from old stories that had never really been integrated into modern DC batman.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:32 (nine years ago) link
SHIELD was behind all that stuff except the bad stuff which was HYDRA behind SHIELD behind all that stuff.
Ultimate wasn't all bad - obviously Bendis writes a pretty good Spiderman (and a great JJJ) - but it was clear from early on (more so with Millar's X-Men I guess) that most of what was going to happen was that every piece of shit backstory was some writer's favourite, which they'd feel they needed to bring back (sometimes with a radikal remake) to make everything right.
I'd also rep for Ultimate Galactus trilogy, but I might be alone there.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:43 (nine years ago) link
continuity is great if it's a tool and not a fence
― like a giraffe of nah (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 16:54 (nine years ago) link
Millar Ultimates is p dope iirc
― resulting post (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 17:05 (nine years ago) link
I'm up to Hickman-era Ultimates (alongside his FF run) and, while I'm digging his ultra large-scale storytelling and his willingness to radically change the landscape (entire portions of continents have been wiped out!), it suffers somewhat from the same taint as the Ultimate line in general. Namely, the need for unnecessary callbacks to 616 continuity. Like, great, you've created this radical new society of superpowered beings, but was it really necessary to call them Eternals and Deviants and have them ruled by the Xorn brothers?
At any rate, I really appreciate the bucketloads of ideas he's willing to pour into a single issue of comics. I'm trying very hard to keep track of all the moving pieces but I'm sure stuff is zipping past me.
― Tarkus Aurelius (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:19 (nine years ago) link
Is this the best sentence ever written?
Like, great, you've created this radical new society of superpowered beings, but was it really necessary to call them Eternals and Deviants and have them ruled by the Xorn brothers?
Yes!
― schwantz, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:30 (nine years ago) link
I think all the good names have been taken so you end up with completely different concepts using the same names in other Marvel universes
― ultimate american sock (mh), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:38 (nine years ago) link
I guess, but then also Mike Carey came up with this character in his Ultimate Fantastic Four run who was fairly unique and a character unto herself who I then realized some time later was meant to be the Ultimate version of the Mad Thinker. I wish there had been a lot more of that kind of thing, but I don't know how much pressure there was on the writers to shoehorn pre-existing trademarks into their stories.
― Tarkus Aurelius (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:42 (nine years ago) link
i loved that whole Eternals/Deviants thing
― Nhex, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:49 (nine years ago) link