Taking Sides: Seven Soldiers vs the Age of Apocalypse

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Vastly ambitious projects involving bookends and interlocking, tightly-plotted miniseries, starring revamps of old and often forgotten characters, which then trickled into mainstream continuity in frustrating and underwhelming form. The main difference is that AoA actually came out on time.

OK seriously, on ILX's return from its own lengthy sojourn in a twisted alternate universe what better than a thread about this 'seminal' 90s storyline? My contrarian 90s nostalgia is in full swing. High-watermark of 90s gimmickry and gloom OR WHAT?

(Except for Fabian Nicieza's bizarre and ongoing delusion that he could write 'banter')

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 14:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Show me someone calling Seven Soldiers sophisticated, and we'll talk.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 January 2007 14:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha don't worry, I was going to say that the "Seven Soldiers vs" bit was just to get the ILC crew reading. Seven Soldiers is gloriously unsophisticated and also loads better than AoA BUT AoA was a lot better than I thought it would be. I could have called the thread "Age of Apocalypse better than current X-Men" but I didn't want it to be 100% an x-nerd thread. Maybe 99%.

Also the SS parallel points up just how much tighter the big comics companies seemed to be in terms of actually planning and running events then.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 14:49 (seventeen years ago) link

So dear to my heart is this thread that I have amended my original post.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 14:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Not to be a pedantic pain in the ass (which means, of course, that's my aim), but were forgotten characters actually rehabbed in AoA? There were "new" characters (Blink, Dark Beast), & revamped versions of existing characters (now with asstastic costumes), but was there any sort of character remediation happening amidst all the ponytails & crap nu-wave styling?

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

No you're right pretty much - there was a certain amount of "can you spot the Vanisher?" style easter eggs. On the other hand it tends to be rarer for X-Universe characters to get properly forgotten.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Except for Maggot. ;)

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:17 (seventeen years ago) link

JUST YOU WAIT.

X-Creators are a different matter BTW. Until my epic odyssey through the crushed wreckage of Xavier's Dream ect ect I had long since forgotten phrases like "John Francis Moore", "Howard Mackie" and "Ben Raab".

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

And that's how you get this shit out on time! Morrison takes time; Mackie takes the paycheck. Or something.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Even Mackie's stuff was pretty good though! Well most of it, I think his final issue made no sense because he decided to use some highfalutin 'medias res' shit: Bob Harras had obviously gone on a coffee break and the whip had been disastrously lowered.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Was this when Harris was EIC, or just the X-Men major domo?

To be honest, I only read the "cool" titles from this thing (Astonishing, Weapon X, &, um, Gambit & the Externals), and the bookending Alpha / Omega crap WITH FANCY COVERS. Eff one X-Calibre. & there was some 2-part mini that dealt w/ the non-mutant world surrounding the AoA stuff, wasn't there? It had purty Carlos Pacheco art, that much I remember. [nu-old-ILX cut me off, teh bastard]

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:46 (seventeen years ago) link

IIRC Harras' success with this was what got him the EIC job. This itself dates from that weird "year of the four emperors" era when all the various offices were left to their own devices. It's also from the tail-end of the speculator boom too, which may account for the brutal scheduling control - the prevailing idea at the time was that chronic lateness, especially on crossovers (Deathmate!) was what had killed the boom.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link

the prevailing idea at the time was that chronic lateness, especially on crossovers (Deathmate!) was what had killed the boom

Oh, the ironing is delicious.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:54 (seventeen years ago) link

When did things start being spectacularly late again, then?

(apologies to Tom, I don't really know much about AoA except that Paul O'Brien likes it in a 'back in my day we knew how to do an overblown world event that changed sod all PROPERLY' way)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I was gonna say that I thought Marvel was always tight about scheduling, tho, thanks to Jim Shooter & his ALWAYS BE PREPARED fill-in issue policies, but I don't recall if the Image kids caused any severe scheduling conflicts once they made the scene. Though I remember many a fill-in tag-team effort during the Jim Lee X-"run." I was under the impression that Image actually made lateness the new hottness, since these perpetually tardy kids were now left to their own devices.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah it was the breakaway to Image that started the lateness. Everybody got their first issues out, counted the money, thought "BLIMEY" and suddenly the drawing board seemed to hold less appeal than the beach/bar/Levi's ad.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:11 (seventeen years ago) link

God, I'm actually getting nostalgic fuzzies about Image. Ewwww.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Now of course the motivating factor is "Hurrah I have achieved my lifetimes dream of writing an Wolverine comic!! Second issue you say?"

Thankfully as any NEWMEN or CHAPEL reader knows, true quality is worth the wait.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I do remember Howard Mackie, because the same Mr O'Brien considers his work on Mutant X the worst run on an X-book ever.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:23 (seventeen years ago) link

I guess the closest either of the Big Two's come to this sort of efficiency is ANNIHILATION - grand in scope & "importance," yet contained, and definitely enjoyable (tho I saw some blogger jerk put it on his WORST OF THE YEAR list; bloggers are stupid). And pretty timely, to boot.

Been said before, but CIVIL WAR (w/ the tardiness) and INFINITE 52 (w/ the profligate WTFness & post-game retconning) have both screwed the pooch, despite the strong sales of the actual minis.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link

x-pooost

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Top 90s Nostalgia LARFFS to be had with their turning Speedball into a grim'n'gritty type called PENANCE, whose costume seems to be based on Scarab! Or am I thinking of Sandman?

I think it's very kind of Civil War to wait for ILX to come back before putting any more issues out.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Howard Mackie's an object lesson for When Clockpunchers Go Horribly Wrong. Tho I guess he wasn't really a clockpuncher when he was on Mutant X, thanks to the success of his Ghost Rider revamp (& its spinoffs) (yes, Ghost Rider spinoffs, I can't believe that happened) (tho I can believe I bought it) & his "work" on the Spidey titles during the Scarlet Spider / Year One events.

Marvel (& maybe DC - can't think of any examples) is full of these sorts of failures, where reliably mediocre writers & organizational solders get big time assignments and screw the pooch. Most of them happened during the prospector boom-crash, tho Chuck Austen's the latest example, & his stink is still pretty fresh.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Tom, plz tell me you're kidding.

TS: PENANCE vs. CLOR

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link

No no it was on Newsarama Blog* this morning!! LOL@Jenkins.

*see what no ILC has made me click on.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Marvel (& maybe DC - can't think of any examples) is full of these sorts of failures, where reliably mediocre writers & organizational solders get big time assignments and screw the pooch.

DC tends to get in a big name writer to screw the pooch, then put them in charge of the dog kennel (I just flicked through JLA today).

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link

MELTZER FOREVER

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Don't forget the lead-in crossover to AOA, Legion Quest! I remember that I was happy to see Legion back since I'd had the opportunity to read a ton of old X-Men comics about a year before.

― mh. (mike h.), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, Legion Quest also quite good (hilarious appearance of Teh Watchers included). It suffers a little bit from having the actual X-Men in rather than the more coherent AoA versions.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Age of Apocalypse was awesome, even the bits that sucked.

Victor Creed as a sympathetic character was totally awesome, plus even though it made no sense the Generation Next series rocked.

(lol at Gambit and th X-Ternals, tho)

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:38 (seventeen years ago) link

(also lol at Raab/Mackie flashbacks)

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:50 (seventeen years ago) link

My brain says Seven Soldiers, but my heart says Age of Apocalypse, if just for the stuff with Blink and Sabretooth in the Madureira X-Men book.

― M Perpetua (mperpetua), Thursday, 4 January 2007 21:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Nah, it's Seven Soldiers. I love Mr. Miracle too much, and Zatanna and Frankenstein and Manhattan Guardian are all great too.

― M Perpetua (mperpetua), Thursday, 4 January 2007 21:18 (seventeen years ago) link

hi Matt maybe you shd read Tom's first two posts

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 January 2007 21:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh, now why do that?

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 21:31 (seventeen years ago) link

I have kind of a tendency to answer thread titles before reading the rest, and it is at least partially linked to a desire to answer the question without being influenced by other people who got to the thread before me.

― M Perpetua (mperpetua), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Even w/ the not-so-slight offchance that you'll end up repeating what someone's already said?

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:31 (seventeen years ago) link

It's a take sides thread! There's only two answers, really!

― M Perpetua (mperpetua), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:35 (seventeen years ago) link

It was impossible for me to follow AoA getting by on the comics at the grocery store but I remember believing strongly that Blink ruled

― A B C (sparklecock), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Blink did rule, though only in that story, and in the context of her in-continuity appearance in that Phalanx story. When they put her in the Exiles book, she was just sorta generic.

― M Perpetua (mperpetua), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:40 (seventeen years ago) link

Why on earth does Exiles exist. Is there an equivalent super nerd bomb elseworlds book for DC or am I just making that up?

― Adrienne Begley (sparklecock), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Planetary:) DC has no real need of it after it's repeated death-to-multiple-earths convulsions.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 January 2007 23:29 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes "Mr Creed" is grebt. Generation Next is four issues of kids fighting fat mutant perverts in a big power station - HOW CAN THIS BE BAD!?

I like the idea that AoA was Marvel's final fuck you to the 'grocery store audience' too.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 23:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Exiles may yet have a use as a Phantom Zone prison for Chris Claremont where he can write about mental domination forever and his fans can give Marvel money, while the main titles pay nary a mind.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 January 2007 23:50 (seventeen years ago) link

AOA as a whole never tempted me - I had finally dropped the lead X-titles on the previous crossover - but the Generation X book, Generation Next, was actually really really good. Melodrama galore, but it's Bachalo when he could draw a comic that made sense, paired with one of the better bits of scripting Scott Lobdell ever brought to his career on the books. Maybe it's a little too "OMG THIS IS DARK AND PESSIMISTIC" but if you're going to do a crossover whose premise is "It's a dark and pessimistic alternate world!" it's nice to have at least one book that really gets that this is not going to be fun. Very much worth the read for his monster designs alone.

― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Friday, 5 January 2007 01:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know AoA -- I didn't read Marvel back then, unless Peter David wrote it -- what's it all about, then?

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Friday, 5 January 2007 02:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I have a 6" Sugar Man action figure that cackles!

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Friday, 5 January 2007 02:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Chuck: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Of_Apocalypse

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Friday, 5 January 2007 03:13 (seventeen years ago) link

The other thing I remember about AoA was that there was a book that was the "hooray, everything's back to normal" issue called "X-Men Prime" that was completely unnecessary. The entire arc was wrapped up between Alpha/Omega issues and the four months of books, so Prime was "Hooray, we're the X-Men! Look, there's a mutant being attacked by humans! We will save him. Wow, it's great to be the X-Men." I think it barely touched on the plot issues that were set up before the whole AoA thing went into place.

― mh. (mike h.), Friday, 5 January 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link

It did, however, have a very shiny cover.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 5 January 2007 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Sparkly, if I remember correctly. Like clear plastic with a metallic sparkle. They just don't use nearly as many novelty covers these days.

― mh. (mike h.), Friday, 5 January 2007 19:46 (seventeen years ago) link

BUT there's an upcoming issue of Action Comics that'll be IN 3-D!!!

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 5 January 2007 19:53 (seventeen years ago) link

With embossed, REAL 3D cover? I hope so!

― mh. (mike h.), Friday, 5 January 2007 19:54 (seventeen years ago) link

omg I have to find my copy of X-Men: Prime now

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Friday, 5 January 2007 21:35 (seventeen years ago) link

That X-Men Prime cover was shiny, and illustrated by a young Bryan Hitch!

― M Perpetua (mperpetua), Friday, 5 January 2007 22:17 (seventeen years ago) link

I've got Bryan Hitch comics six or seven years older than that.

― nu-mongrel (kit brash), Saturday, 6 January 2007 02:40 (seventeen years ago) link

Hold on, the X-Men Prime cover wasn't Alan Davis?

― Tom (Groke), Saturday, 6 January 2007 22:38 (seventeen years ago) link

No, that was Hitch.

http://www.dvd-test.org/covers/hitch.png

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Saturday, 6 January 2007 23:28 (seventeen years ago) link

"der date doktor"!!!!! best tagline EVER

― s1ocki (slutsky), Sunday, 7 January 2007 00:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I haven't checked them out, but didn't Marvel collect AoA in some completely screwed-up fashion?

― mh. (mike h.), Sunday, 7 January 2007 04:58 (seventeen years ago) link

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