it's not vague, the detail is just buried. the place where severian is imprisoned is actually a luxurious converted ballroom or large drawing room of some sort in a versailles style. it might sound ostentatious but the series is really written as much for re-reading as it is for reading and a lot of details jump out at you the second or third time.
the "second house" is a series of hidden rooms and passageways in the house absolute. i think practically every room in the house is connected to the "second house" in some way, so that every room can be spied on or secretly accessed. there are magic mirrors in the second house but no colocated rooms ... that we know of, anyway.
the witches (and the cumean, who is a cacogen) have power over time the same way father inire has power over space. they don't so much travel in time as bring the two times into simultaneous existence. it is a confusing episode and severian spends chunks of three and four and five trying to figure it out. there are clues but the big reveal is at the end of the fourth book. if you want a hint, there is a connection between apu-punchau and the face in the tomb. btw, the cumean actually is a snake-like creature, not a humanoid.
dr talos' play is one of the most complicated parts of the book. it foreshadows the explication of past events, i.e. the history of old urth. it also explains the prophecies and teachings of the conciliator (which otherwise are not really explained) ... in one part of the book it mentions that talos' play is based on a book called "eschatology & genesis" which is the authoritative text on the conciliator.
it also foreshadows events in book 5 (the coming of the new sun) and reflects on the personalities of the main characters, particularly talos, dorcas and jolenta. i don't really think it directly signposts any particular events in books three and four but like i said it is a really deep section of the book and i haven't sussed out all of the threads yet.
― the late great, Wednesday, 20 June 2012 17:44 (eleven years ago) link
when i say it "foreshadows past events" i mean that it is a metaphorical / allegorical explanation of the history of old urth (for example, what happened before the autarchal system was established. what happened to the sun?) which is then explained in a much more concrete way in the third book (and slightly in the fourth)
― the late great, Wednesday, 20 June 2012 18:02 (eleven years ago) link
started book three yesterday, will post thoughts as they come to me
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:59 (eleven years ago) link
just about to finish book one. afraid to read this thread b/c everyone's ahead of me, but i'm really, really enjoying it. i thought it was a little hard to get into until the interaction between thecla and severian started, but ever since then i've been into it.
― karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Monday, 25 June 2012 15:41 (eleven years ago) link
I've started three, too. It's my favorite so far. Might have spoilered myself on some stuff. Thx for clearing ^ up, late great
― indian rope trick (remy bean), Monday, 25 June 2012 20:17 (eleven years ago) link
i always forget that severian is running around barechested.. then they mention it. and i lol.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Friday, 29 June 2012 01:57 (eleven years ago) link
just finished book three last night. started book four.
things got pretty weird!but i still have a problem with some of the filler chapters/adventures. the pace can be very plodding when some of the events recounted by severian seem relatively... inconsequential? idk. i'm sure it will all come together.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 15:10 (eleven years ago) link
any events in particular?
― the late great, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 18:58 (eleven years ago) link
these books would be a lot better with more dragons
― Lamp, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:06 (eleven years ago) link
that's like saying dune would be better with ornithopter dogfights
anyway the undines are the dragons, and this is low fantasy, so no, you can't battle dragons no matter how big your tool is
― the late great, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 23:29 (eleven years ago) link
gene wolfey knows to reserve his big sword for the ladeez
― Lamp, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 00:03 (eleven years ago) link
the pace can be very plodding when some of the events recounted by severian seem relatively... inconsequential?
it's been a while but iirc some of the seemingly inconsequential events turn out to not be?
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 00:32 (eleven years ago) link
every event relates to the plot though not every event advances the plot, if that makes sense
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 00:43 (eleven years ago) link
I've finished book three as well. I was digging the Big Bad of the Mountain Autarch, and his Window-Eyes of Doom and Jodorowskyan Psycho-Fuckwithery, but he was dispensed quickly and nothing really came of it? Same as * spoiler * little Sevarian? I liked the direction in which the plot was moving but then *zap* and kapow and the Giant fell and ... uhh... here I am, in a sick ward in the first third of the fourth book.
― uncondensed milky way (remy bean), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 01:20 (eleven years ago) link
I guess I had trouble w/ li'l Sev's death and the ensuing one page of 'ooh, that's sad' before 'back to my quest I go.' I've got to admit, I dislike this book as much as I like it, but I have no desire to stop reading it. It is good? And bad?
― uncondensed milky way (remy bean), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 01:21 (eleven years ago) link
what did you expect to happen when he fought baldanders?
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 01:25 (eleven years ago) link
It just seems that Baldanders was a weird callback? He wasn't anticipated (to me) as a villain; he didn't figure in my comprehension of the narrative structure of the book. He was a colorful Guildenstern to Talos's Rosencrantz, a B-lister who got called up unexpectedly. I didn't have any investment in him – nor in the continuation of his character. I don't know how much i buy the progression from 'big Queequeg guy who sleeps in S.'s bed and has weird dreams --> guy that acts crazy onstage --> guy who actually goes crazy and attacks an audience at the autarch's palace --> enormous superstrength monster who keeps a foggy castle full of genetic experiments that turn on him, with the aid of extraterrestrial creeps --> guy that appears to die but probably doesn't.
I'll admit how much I'm glad to have read this far, and that the story is a decidedly new type for me. I'm still flummoxed, tho.
― uncondensed milky way (remy bean), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 01:34 (eleven years ago) link
kinda gotta agree w Remy in that the baldanders thing at the end of book three was a surprise & seemed to come out of the blue. also the revelation that dr. talos was a homonculus.
the drawn out fight with the alzabo that kills little severian's family seemed a bit unnecessary to me. likewise the incident with the salamander.
i'm sure something is going to happen with dorcas but going through most of Sword of the Lictor without any advancement of her plot (except the explicit statement that she used to be dead) was a bit of a drag. i understand there is only one character given the privilege of narrating the story and so we see things only through his eyes, and of course that is just the consequence of the way Wolfe chose to write the book, but its challenge because if you get bored there is no knowledge that something else is gonna happen? idk. it actually reads a bit like a D&D campaign to me where monsters randomly attack and magical experiences are had in a seemingly endless stream without much rhyme or reason?
― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:26 (eleven years ago) link
i do like that in this book you saw much more of severian as a scheming, cold and self-serving guy instead of just a man beset by trials and tribulations with which he must contend.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:27 (eleven years ago) link
tbh i thought the idea of the moving islands of roots was one of the best images i've had in my head in a while. A+
― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:30 (eleven years ago) link
both baldanders and typhon represent the folly of scientific materialism. they are both mountains of men yet both are dependent on leaser beings: baldanders on a physical midget and typhon on a mental midget (contrast to the relationship between severian and little sev). actually they mirror each other: a silent giant with a smaller, more talkative companion. both see things others do not (typhon's eyes, the cloud chambers), both live unnaturally extended lives, both are betrayed by a tool, both seek to bargain with the hierodules and both are betrayed
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:36 (eleven years ago) link
are they both worth the same # of xps tho?
― Lamp, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:44 (eleven years ago) link
feel like you guys maybe read books for different reasons than i do
maybe that's why i can't watch tv, it's like this never ending stream of *things happening* w/o much reflection
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:47 (eleven years ago) link
also when you say you "expected something to happen w dorcas" does realizing she's been resurrected and then not only is she not grateful to severian but she literally dumps him and goes back to the city of the dead?
i'd say "something happened"!
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:51 (eleven years ago) link
the late great why do you read books?
― Lamp, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:01 (eleven years ago) link
to suspend the flow of time, to meditate, to be places i haven't been, to commune with other minds, to engage w ideas
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:10 (eleven years ago) link
i like digressive and atmospheric stuff, things like stanislaw lem and borges
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:11 (eleven years ago) link
~hero~
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:12 (eleven years ago) link
honestly i mostly read nonfiction history and cultural books though so maybe that's why wolfe appeals to me?
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:13 (eleven years ago) link
I dont read nonfiction history but read things like stanislaw lem and borges
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:15 (eleven years ago) link
late great have you read the rings of saturn
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:16 (eleven years ago) link
read that even lamp wont talk shit about that
is that sebald? no but i like stuff like that a lot.
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:17 (eleven years ago) link
i am going to reread these i think, i want to talk about books but i read these like three maybe four summers ago and found them kinda obscurantist and gross, like there were a lot of words but not very many ideas. and the ideas he does have are the same ugly ones lots of these books have about the solitary male but i dont really remember much except the part where they fight the monsters army that lives in the ocean, ever growing, and how its troops can only communicate in stock phrases, i liked that a lot
― Lamp, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:17 (eleven years ago) link
yeah read rings of saturn as soon as you can xp
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:17 (eleven years ago) link
there are lots of ideas, a lot of them are about christianity though
the army doesn't live in the ocean, but they are allies w/ the creatures in the ocean
i've only read austerlitz and vertigo
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:18 (eleven years ago) link
rings of saturn is best imho but that is mho so who knows
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:19 (eleven years ago) link
i like sebald but i like thomas bernhard more, that's a different conversation though and probably not related much to wolfe
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:21 (eleven years ago) link
sebald is dope it think we talked about this once on ilx? i feel like i tired to get you to read 'memories of the future' and/or 'letter killers club' but maybe that was someone else/another conversation...
no i know that i thought the creatures controlled them or something? its also p vague but i thought only one of the creatures lived in the ocean and it was always growing or something?
― Lamp, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:21 (eleven years ago) link
― the late great, Tuesday, July 10, 2012 9:21 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is 100% reasonable, I agree w/ this, but rings of saturn is a completely different beast I think, also read war and war by krasznahorkai if you haven't, sorry about hijacking the wolfe thread, I'll back off now
― Lamp, Tuesday, July 10, 2012 9:21 PM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
nah someone else but I'll check that shit out
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:26 (eleven years ago) link
it's very vague and it's never clear if abaia is one creature, many creatures, a culture, a race or what.
the creatures in the ocean make a deal with the army from the north, but the hierodules - and the undines - both make clear that they're not manipulating human events even though they're somewhat involved in them
in the end it turns out that undines and the hierodules want the same thing anyway but i'm not going to spoil that one
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:26 (eleven years ago) link
sorry but you guys sound like roman in that one ep of party down
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:28 (eleven years ago) link
y'all should read p. mckillip's riddlemaster series imo
it is briefer and less convoluted and similarly awesome
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:28 (eleven years ago) link
who's roman?? what's party down? what did he sound like?
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:29 (eleven years ago) link
i don't actually think this wolfe book is meant to be a mystery, if you read all four carefully i think almost all of the plot threads are pretty clear, it's just the subtle ways in which they're tied together which is obscure
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:30 (eleven years ago) link
i think one of my favorite parts of book three is when he's wandering in the mountains after escaping thrax but before finding the cottage in the mountains, and he's delirious and just experiencing looking at the stars in the mountains on a clear night and seeing clouds from above and the sunrise and what not, it's just beautiful and evocative and captures something that i've also felt when looking at mountains and stars and clouds
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:33 (eleven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnYoyCgFKSI&feature=related
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:37 (eleven years ago) link
oh he looks like a pretty chiil dude
― the late great, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:39 (eleven years ago) link
he bones that chick, right?
no he forgot to carry around his badass sword
― Lamp, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:41 (eleven years ago) link