omg @ mea culpa
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 03:58 (fourteen years ago) link
This all sounds like an interesting school of thought. How will it fare when applied to the advertising of women's clothing?
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:06 (fourteen years ago) link
the social ensnarement of women via accoutrements.
Around the time of the sexual revolution/2nd wave feminism in the 60s/70s/80s the image of the superwoman was popularized. She was not only supposed to be as effective a worker as her male counterpart, but also highly capable as a wife, mother, and aesthetic subject. Nowhere is this seen more than in the products women are supposed to keep on their person, presumably in their purse or handbag. Failure to have these products, which include beauty aids as well as organizational/work tools, signifies a failure to fulfill the exhaustingly large list of requirements to be successful.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:08 (fourteen years ago) link
can you quote some relevant guy debord now plz ;)
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:12 (fourteen years ago) link
not from memory ... the books are all in the other room.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:13 (fourteen years ago) link
aw
Can you now analyse the 'soccer/hockey mom' phenomenon?
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:16 (fourteen years ago) link
after I have dinner ... someone else do some semiotic analysis while I'm gone, please?
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:26 (fourteen years ago) link
uh, websites give you the illusion of choice but really they restrict the "free association" they imply through click-through designation and rationalise your thought process for you. Most web design is about a surfeit of choice which suggests unlimited options on each page but in reality the progression of one page to the next within a website is quite linear. This prolly has to do with newspeak and the mechanisation of our thought processes or something u kno?
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:37 (fourteen years ago) link
adverts know you know how they're selling the product, and they expect you to be complicit in a narrative where the advert does not stand alone but exists in relation to other adverts; now no longer directly selling its product, the advert strives to be 'the one where x happens' as compared to other adverts for similar items, and depends on them to remain memorable. once the narrative has been digested, the buyer must merely pick a 'favourite bit' like from a movie or a sitcom. this is why to an occasional television watcher like myself, adverts seem increasingly superficial, jarring, and flashy. it is because their visual and conceptual span is not complete; it is a discrete fragment of a hypnotic and ritual whole
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:47 (fourteen years ago) link
Does it depend on the jean? There are many different classes of demin. There are lower end demin, such as you find at Aamerican Eagle, Levi's Forever 21, Gap, and J Crew. Then there's 7's, Ernst Sewn, Jean Shop, Paper. Then there's Marc Jacobs, Gucci, etc... Does this affect the sexist implications found in the design of the jean?
― Jacob Sanders, Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:55 (fourteen years ago) link
yeah, sexism crosses class boundaries
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:56 (fourteen years ago) link
So designer jeans don't allow for more freedom?
― Jacob Sanders, Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:57 (fourteen years ago) link
no, they only allow for the the freedom of men to oppress women into carrying babies in their purses (which might get stolen)
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 04:59 (fourteen years ago) link
Jeans are a different issue - they are not "professional" attire
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 09:33 (fourteen years ago) link
jeez, girlmore like insomniotics
― velko, Tuesday, 11 August 2009 09:43 (fourteen years ago) link
62 False choice in spectacular abundance, a choice which lies in the juxtaposition of competing and complimentary spectacles and also in the juxtaposition of roles (signified and carried mainly by things) which are at once exclusive and overlapping, develops into a struggle of vaporous qualities meant to stimulate loyalty to quantitative triviality. This resurrects false archaic oppositions, regionalisms and racism which serve to raise the vulgar hierarchic ranks of consumption to a preposterous ontological superiority. In this way, the endless series trivial confrontations is set up again, from competitive sports to elections ...
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 09:46 (fourteen years ago) link
Women's pants (sexist or not) are horrible anyway. IMO they just don't look good... but that's just me I guess.
― Y tú, y tú, dime lo que bailas! (daavid), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 09:55 (fourteen years ago) link
O_O this is turning into the thread where people had to translate song titles into academese, while other posters had to guess the title of song in question... but without the "songs" part.
― Y tú, y tú, dime lo que bailas! (daavid), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 10:01 (fourteen years ago) link
Dear celebrity, spectacular representation of a living human being, can I get your sister's email why because she look intersting
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 10:06 (fourteen years ago) link
i <3 this shit tbh
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 11:05 (fourteen years ago) link
I will address the semiotics of soccer moms after I get some sleep.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 11:13 (fourteen years ago) link
That Debord quote ties in perfectly with my line about advertising. Not sure I'd call competitive sports or elections 'false choices' mind.
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 13:04 (fourteen years ago) link
competitive sports are a perfect example of false choices.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 18:49 (fourteen years ago) link
lol so are elections! perhaps that's why he mentioned competitive sports and elections in that paragraph..............
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 18:51 (fourteen years ago) link
i am shaking my head at lj
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 18:52 (fourteen years ago) link
it certainly has been posited quite a bit about U.S. elections, to be sure.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:03 (fourteen years ago) link
something can only be false if you believe in the truth
― cool app (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:05 (fourteen years ago) link
My only contention with sarahel's points, as one who shops with my gf quite often and has noted the bewildering variety that any 'size' may have wrt to women's clothing, is that, otoh, there is a certain standard and normative 'masculinity' which disparages men who are 'overly' fastidious about their clothing or overly daring. If a man is a size 42, he buys a coat size 42 but does that mean that all manufacturers make them equally? If a man wanted no pockets or non-functional pockets, could he get them easily in business attire? The conservativeneness of men's attire - the lounge suit being essentially THE de rigueur attire of men - dates from the 20's and while it has had fuller or narrower trousers and wider or narrower lapels and X number of buttons or been single or double breasted, it has otherwise little changed in 90 years. Standardization of sizes sounds like a good idea but it leads to a conformity and leveller result that denies rather provides variety and individual choice. At least when my gf goes clothes shopping, she knows that she has to try everything on - every brand's sizes being different and often different within the brand on different items of clothing. For men, the variables are generally inseam, sleeve, collar, chest, and waist. Add to this the varities of feminine curves , i.e., large bust/large hips, large bust/small hips, small bust/large hips, small bust/small hips and all the individual modulations specific to a real as opposed to a template woman and the sizing issue, while admittedly annoying, seems less to me like a horrible conspiracy (though there is definitely size deflation for the purpose of flattery) then a natural result of the nature of the business.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:09 (fourteen years ago) link
DUMPLINGS!
― cool app (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:09 (fourteen years ago) link
xp - men aren't all shaped the same, either. I see where you're coming from, though. A guy with a significant gut has fewer stylistic options of camouflaging, flattering said protuberance, than a woman does.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:13 (fourteen years ago) link
in my experience, all men's clothes are designed with disguising gut protuberance as top priority
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:15 (fourteen years ago) link
but it isn't as if men can wear a-line dresses ... well, they could but ...
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:18 (fourteen years ago) link
http://www.comic-mint.com/media/client/homer-mumu-bedroom-E1728_sml.jpg
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:20 (fourteen years ago) link
Men's pants are sized consistently based on measurements,
ALL I HAVE TO SAY AT LOL ALREADY DIDN'T READ REST OF THREAD
GO MEASURE ANY GENDER'S PAIR OF PANTS THAT AREN'T MADE IN FRANCE, ITALY OR JAPAN AND SEE HOW THEY COMPARE TO THE LABELED SIZE, THIS ISSUE IS NOT UNIQUE TO WOMENSWEAR
― (*゚ー゚)θ L(。・_・) °~ヾ(・ε・ *) (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:20 (fourteen years ago) link
but...semiotics...
― cool app (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:22 (fourteen years ago) link
yes, but the sizes refer to actual measurements, one can say, "These are supposed to be 34 inch waist pants, I have measured my waist and it is 34 inches, these pants do not fit, thus these pants are wrong."
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:24 (fourteen years ago) link
shrink-to-fit, ding dongs
― Fox Force Five Punchline (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:24 (fourteen years ago) link
No mass-manufactured item will ever fit perfectly on anyone but that lucky person who is 'average' in every variable measurement and even then, if it's poorly done, it will still look shitty. I just mean that in the complicated process of draping two-dimensional plane around a three-dimensional body, there are added challenges, even if you factor out societal and gender expectations, when clothing women.
I generally have to get all my suits tailored to some degree or another and there are certain brands which are simply not cut for me.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:25 (fourteen years ago) link
my legs are too long for me
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:26 (fourteen years ago) link
before i got a paunch it was very hard for me - a tall and, at the time, slim male - to find trousers that fit. 28" waist 34" inside leg is difficult.
― De Mysteriis Dom Passantino (jim), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:27 (fourteen years ago) link
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vBiL4nSwNBU/SEl5Rxceg9I/AAAAAAAAADQ/hkiQIATg27A/s320/hostess_ding_dongs_300w.jpg
or
http://www.candyfavorites.com/pi/hostess-ho-hos.jpg
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:27 (fourteen years ago) link
names are onomatopoeic representations of sound effects
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:30 (fourteen years ago) link
The Man Who Was Shorter Than Himself
There was a man two inches shorter than himselfWho always kept getting stuck in the sidewalk;And when the curious townsmen cameTo yank his arms and crush his hat,He'd spit in the eye of the lean,and steal the wallets off the fat.
― cool app (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:30 (fourteen years ago) link
I guess what I'm saying, is don't trust the size marked, it varies from brand to brand and even sometimes within and you have to see how it fits.
I also wonder at your pocket/purse dynamic. I think it may be the other way around. At present, woomen have purses so why have ungainly bulges and folds in their clothing when they mostly won't put anything in there so as not to ruin the line? You could wonder why there is still a vestigial style for faux pockets, perhaps, or why women want to look sexy, but I can understand why, if they're going to carry a purs, they don't want real pockets. Otoh, I have seen quite a few summer dresses w/functional pockets this year.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:31 (fourteen years ago) link
this isn't really semiotics 4u anymore btw, this is like every ILS thread ever
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:33 (fourteen years ago) link
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel),
AROUND 25 YEARS AGO, CLOTHING MANUFACTURERS BEGAN "VANITY SIZING". THIS IS WHY I SAY GO MEASURE A GARMENT AND COMPARE TO THE LABEL SIZE. I DON'T TYPE IN ALL CAPS JUST FOR FUN. LOL
― (*゚ー゚)θ L(。・_・) °~ヾ(・ε・ *) (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:34 (fourteen years ago) link
THIS IS THE FIRST I'VE HEARD ABOUT VANITY SIZING TBH
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:36 (fourteen years ago) link
Here is an interesting series of articles about how fit models work in the womens' clothing industry, which lends some support to sarahel's theories re: women's pants:http://theprettyyear.com/2009/03/10/size-chart-woes/http://theprettyyear.com/2009/03/17/size-chart-woes-part-ii/http://theprettyyear.com/2009/03/18/size-chart-woes-part-iii-revenge-of-the-stitch/
― she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:37 (fourteen years ago) link
I just have a problem with purses ... I'd end up forgetting them on public transport or in the corner at a club or something ... it's something else to keep tabs on when you're in a public place. I prefer to keep everything in pockets -- fortunately, most of the year I can wear a jacket or sweatshirt and keep things in there, but when it gets hot (like it was the past two days), it's too warm for a jacket or sweatshirt, and the pants pockets problem rears its head.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:39 (fourteen years ago) link
friend of mine who interned for some semi-up and coming designer last summer claimed that the guy (who only wore cargo shorts) didn't really like the idea of "fat ppl" wearing his clothes and used a fit model who was definitely too small and the clothes were all about six sizes (european) than they claimed they were. Also they just measure one person who is a real person and usually a quite skinny model whose proportions are not v. representative fyi and then add two inches to the measurements to go up each size
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 19:42 (fourteen years ago) link
What are people's thoughts on concrete poetry? I ask because I used to read a lot of that kind of stuff, and I'm now reading Perloff's 'unoriginal genius' and I noticed she views it differently from me. She sees I as a somewhat conservative trend which equates the signified and the sign. I always felt that it was contrasting the signal and the sign, exposing contradictions and opening up new ways to experience characters and text separated from their normal usage.
I know, of course, that concrete poetry isn't enormously popular, I just figured that the typographical possibilities of the internet would bear it's legacy somewhat. Does anyone have any thought, knowledge etc to bear?
― two crickets sassing each other (dowd), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 11:47 (seven years ago) link
I always felt that gomringer's silencio https://i2.wp.com/media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lat7dvHeL31qzkabq.gif is contrasting the for of the word 'silence' with what it signifies, for example
― two crickets sassing each other (dowd), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 11:52 (seven years ago) link
linked to by a friend on fb:http://www.racked.com/2016/9/19/12865560/politics-of-pockets-suffragettes-women
― sarahell, Tuesday, 20 September 2016 19:13 (seven years ago) link
special request 4 semiotic breakdown of veronica, betty and cheryl blossom particularly vis-a-vis cheryl blossom's interruption/addition to riverdale continuity
― Mordy, Thursday, 15 December 2016 01:44 (seven years ago) link
When I think about people “doing semiotics at Brown” I still get a tingle down my spine— Naomi Fry (@frynaomifry) June 22, 2018
― mookieproof, Friday, 22 June 2018 20:07 (six years ago) link
What does a Sarahel think of ‘The Uprising’ by Berardi? Reading it in the pub atm.
― Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Wednesday, 28 November 2018 12:49 (five years ago) link
haven't read it. but I do recommend David Graeber's The Utopia of Rules
― sarahell, Wednesday, 28 November 2018 19:30 (five years ago) link
I’ll check it out! I’ve read Debt and Direct Action - I think I tended to enjoy the anecdotes and ephemera within them more than the overall project, but I did enjoy them.
― Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Friday, 30 November 2018 11:31 (five years ago) link
the anecdotes are good -- I feel like that's where he excels as a writer in this vein
― sarahell, Friday, 30 November 2018 20:39 (five years ago) link
22nd Street tiger painting is gone
that's it, Mission is over
― Milton Parker, Friday, 30 November 2018 23:15 (five years ago) link
HOW DARE THEY!!!!!!!!!!
― sarahell, Friday, 30 November 2018 23:30 (five years ago) link
Also this is the perfect thread for that info.
― sarahell, Friday, 30 November 2018 23:35 (five years ago) link
― Mordy, Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:44 PM (one year ago
In the TV show? I watched it only a few months ago! Riverdale and Gotham are kinda my inexplicable faves rn
― sarahell, Friday, 30 November 2018 23:54 (five years ago) link
i really meant in the comix - cheryl blossom was foregrounded in the world of the show but in the comix iirc she was always an interpolation. "now introducing cheryl!" or like an image of cheryl driving into town in a corvette and veronica and betty put out by archie crushing on her. narratively i think this is obv an opportunity to unite veronica + betty against an outside force but these figures do seem archetypical to me like it's not a coincidence that the brunette + blonde's quest for the all american boy is hijacked by a red head but i'm not 100% sure why i know it's contained within the semiotics of hair color, gender norms + american small town mythos among other things but i can't extract it.
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 December 2018 00:00 (five years ago) link
I never read the comix ... so all I have to go on is the tv show. Having her be revealed as queer was a shift, and kinda felt like a tension release in a way? I kinda don't know how I feel about it. I guess one thing that connects Riverdale & Gotham (outside of being based on comics) tv shows, is the way that they incorporate the retro and the contemporary. Like, these shows are "period" and also not, but they try to make it appear cohesive ... idk.
― sarahell, Saturday, 1 December 2018 00:05 (five years ago) link
Gotham's even "weirder" in that it incorporates (or tries to) elements from multiple time periods, as opposed to Riverdale which is just 50s + contemporary
― sarahell, Saturday, 1 December 2018 00:07 (five years ago) link
riverdale feels like a subversion of the comix - like a lynchian undressing of idyllic small town american high school life. by contrast sabrina despite being also a much more mature + at times disturbing version of its source material feels like it preserves the essential conflicts of the original work. it's just like a much darker take on the torn between two worlds narrative and wanting to be a normal teenager etc. on the show do betty + veronica ever fight over archie? i only watched the first few episodes and the show seemed to be studiously avoiding putting them in competition over his affection.
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 December 2018 00:13 (five years ago) link
they don't really fight over archie. show begins with betty having a thing for archie, but she later gets over it and dates jughead. betty and jughead, and veronica and archie who are also a couple, break up for a short time, and archie and betty kiss during this time. but theres not really any "fighting" and both respective couples get back together
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Saturday, 1 December 2018 00:19 (five years ago) link
it definitely does the Lynch thing, sometimes so much so that I'm rolling my eyes. It's fun tho. I like Gotham better. It actually is interesting in terms of commentary on mental health issues
― sarahell, Saturday, 1 December 2018 00:20 (five years ago) link
also re Riverdale, there's the extra-textual thing of Archie's parents being played by Molly Ringwald and Dylan from 90210
― sarahell, Saturday, 1 December 2018 00:21 (five years ago) link
i keep getting ads for this company. this is one of the ads -- from a Marx-informed perspective -- this whole ad campaign is ... damn ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho4LUg9avZA
― sarahell, Sunday, 10 April 2022 17:25 (two years ago) link