rolling Jericho calls The New Day trap queens 2016

Drug suspension is 30day, doing something slightly innapropriate after raw and while they all walk off stage is 90 days

Fair nuff, massive overreaction of course, but p. much serves him right anyway imo, was a stupid thing to do.

http://i.imgur.com/8v4kQ14.jpg

Maura - you have a magazine and its got okada on the front cover???

the whole issue is wrestling!

I just bought it - kind of a pain as the website kept timing out setting up my account, and no PayPal option?. Anyway, looking forward to reading this along with the Gary Hart memoir and the latest Atomic Elbow that's been sitting here for weeks.

What magazine is this?

Maura Magazine, Oct. 2015

it's true

"10 week long WWE Network-exclusive 32 man invitational cruiserweight tournament at Full Sail", it says here

http://babysimpson.co.uk/gallery/frames/5/1f12/375.jpg

Also interesting that Triple H name-dropped PROGRESS and Rev Pro along with Evolve. Probably also explains the meeting with Lucha Underground recently - I'd guess they want Ricochet in this thing for sure.

The feckin' spoilers on this will be killer, though. I imagine they'll be taping this whole thing over a few days so they can get lock down everyone they want in the same place at the same time.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/mediamonkeyblog/2016/feb/17/new-day-trinity-mirror-wrestles-with-the-daily-newspaper-market

So, the cruiserweight thing sounds incredible. There is talk of a lucha quota, possibly some japanese guys (liger is rumoured), all the british guys like thatcher and sabre jr, ricochet and some other indie stars and the talent who will be nxts main event in the next 18 months. No hornswaggle despite him being reigning champ.

It could just be a boring ass spot fest for a while, but if its the same bookers as nxt and a load of guys lookinh to really push out and make a name for themselves it could be the best thing we see all year.

https://www.facebook.com/JoeyRyanOnline/videos/1350979128249253/

So, the cruiserweight thing sounds incredible. There is talk of a lucha quota, possibly some japanese guys (liger is rumoured), all the british guys like thatcher and sabre jr, ricochet and some other indie stars and the talent who will be nxts main event in the next 18 months

will be interesting to see how all this plays out for sure. it seems a lot will depend on contract status and stuff like that for the guys they wanna get, as I think WWE have probably burned a ton of bridges in the recent past with some of their behaviour - will we really be seeing Jushin Liger back on WWE tv again anytime soon after the way they've just bowled in and scooped the guts out of the NJPW roster?

this was exactly why NJPW refused outright to a deal that was (reportedly) floated where WWE got to broadcast New Japan stuff on the Network (god how amazing would that have been?!), saying that they'd have to be chumps to agree to a situation where the WWE were promoting all the New Japan guys and just waiting to snaffle any talent that got over outside of Japan. of course as it turned out the WWE just shrugged their shoulders and did exactly that anyway.

and how are AAA/Lucha Underground wrt contracts and exclusivity? weren't WWE dicking them around with Rey Mysterio's non-compete for a while there so they weren't able to use him during season 1?

a bunch of these dudes (Sabre, Ospreay, possibly Ricochet? i forget) are being pimped as the next bunch of guys being primed to go to NJPW and fill out that roster a bit. especially if NJPW are now offering multi-year guaranteed contracts as a means of fighting WWE talent raids, maybe that would be more appealing to some of these hot-shot indy guys than an "opportunity" in this cruiserweight open deal with no guarantees at the end of it?

but then those guys are all still being booked on Evolve shows around WM weekend and WWE seems to have a pretty good relationship with Evolve and the WWNLive thing, so who knows?!

idk idk, this is all vague speculation and hearsay, it'd be fucking brilliant to get the real headline indy and international talent to come in and work this thing. either way i think it's a cool and exciting thing.

on the subject of Zack Sabre Jr. though, has anyone here seen much of his stuff / can anyone make any recommendations? I've been watching a few matches of his from Evolve and Progress and I really really like the idea of him, but so far it hasn't hit the spot for me.

He's clearly very talented but the whole act seems a little too... performative? like he's only ever putting on an exhibition. it's very pretty to look at but there's no heat to it and it never feels like he's in a real fight. is this part of what people mean when they talk about the weirdness of old World of Sport mat-based stuff?

boo

i don't need a swerve a week but it genuinely feels like they've just given up on surprising us at all, or ever doing anything other than the most obvious thing

roman won, it was an engaging match, and nothing interesting happened at all. it was the exact story we knew they were going to tell with shades of the exact stories they've been telling for the past year with these characters. it doesn't feel like pre-attitude booking, it feels like pre-80s booking, except kayfabe is dead. there's no heat, nothing matters, who cares?

Yeah also we got the league of nations instead of enzo&cass.

Why fucking care? Fans are fucking crying out for some very simple things that would make it so much better. And if they cant be bothered in doing aaaaanything exciting, eh why not respond with apathy and watching less?

Theyve made BROCK LESNAR not seem special.

meanwhile, this is going to sound super terrible because jim cornette i think said a similar thing a while ago and smarks all around thought it was dumb because i don't think they really got the point:

nxt and by extension the cruiserweight thing and breaking ground -- all the 'minor league' stuff -- feel more and more cynical the crappier the main product gets, like they really only do exist to retain the $9.99/mo from the 'niche' that rejects a roman/HHH main event, basically negating all main roster criticism. WWE knows how to book a 'good' show with heat and engaging angles and characters but they've decided it's more lucrative to toss that out the window and segregate their audiences into "loud fatasses" and "spending-as-fuck families", even if it kills raw ratings and creates a generally embarrassing product. the generic response to cornette's ranting was "well duh, if they give us a product we like (nxt) of course we'll pay for it!" without really grasping that they're giving WWE 100% of the money WWE thinks they'll be able to extract from them anyway and not a penny less. you can't whine about WWE "not listening to its fans" and then keep on spending your $9.99+the occasional enzo/bayley shirt and NXT tour ticket (and invariably watching the network PPVs anyway because hey why not), when that is all WWE ever planned on getting from you. they're not gonna make any extra money off the internet crowd by making raw a good show. the network leveled everything and allowed them to exploit the demos with perfect market segregation. raw is doing fine -- they don't even get direct money off cable ads iirc and USA will continue to love it as long as it's still their #1 show, which isn't going to change. a smarky smark criticizing raw means as much to them as a kid decked out in cena gear criticizing NXT. each fan is still paying what they're gonna pay.

i hate corny but i think he's right. (i probably wouldn't be this irked about it if NXT wasn't super boring right now imo, though i guess it's about to get more interesting)

but WWE is being pretty smart. i think there's a lot more money to be made by doing things differently -- i think wrestling could absolutely be primed to cross over in a major way again with a change in direction -- but they'd clearly rather not take the risk when the network plan has been so successful.

super xps to myself tho relevant to ahh's posts !

i'm also pretty sure at this point that they seriously got styles as a ready-made bryan replacement. jericho kicking out of the clash and immediately submitting to the "calf crusher" seems telling.

on a much sadder note i am definitely not ready to say goodbye to brie mode, the greatest entrance song in WWE and possibly history

They would make more money by making raw a good show. With more viewers, an ratings keeep dropping, they could get higher paid advertising, actually sell out arenas and get big contracts with worldwide television companies. If they are lpsing fans every week, what happens the next time their deal comes up? They talk about how sky has been pissed off since the network launched in europe. Maybe not gonna be a big deal but fuck me what is wrong with trying to do better.

I thought it was a decent show. I thought Aj-jericho was especially good viewing. I really just cant care about watching the weekly shows from it though. Taker and his mystery opponent happens tonight i presume and i still just dont care that much. Maybe if the internet says its good.

But a huge part of their income is still based on TV rights fees, most of which is for RAW. So on one hand they should be concerned about plummeting ratings and crap angles on RAW, on the other hand they're riding the rights fees bubble for live events that every sports league currently enjoys.

I think NXT was meant to be a loss leader for the WWE as a whole, at any one time they're paying 100 people to train at the performance center (plus trainers, equipment, etc.) expecting that realistically, almost none of them will make them any money. But all you need is one John Cena to emerge from the pack to recoup that investment in the long run. I don't think they expected much more from it, so the fact that people are willing to pay for the network to see NXT or to see NXT live shows is almost found money for them.

Plus, it proves to investors that VKM's doofus son-in-law (who will eventually be running the entire company) can run a successful business, despite not having any formal training in business. That probably can't be understated.

xp i don't think they think there's anything wrong with raw as long as they're still making a buttload of network money and merch money. what we see as a shitty product is their idea of success, and changing the formula could harm the family demographic which is their most important one. i don't think that would actually happen but it seems like they do. vince's comments lately also imply that he values the hulu/network numbers on raw (presumably people actually do watch the month-old raws on the network) and he's convinced the cable rating isn't a big deal. and it isn't yet. it's still USA's #1 show, and like i said, they don't get money from ads, NBC does. and NBC is still paying them enough apparently. they never really got good ads, no matter the ratings, right? the issue has always been that the big advertisers didn't want to be associated with wrestling, no matter how huge the rating is.

either way it's the network that's making them their money now, as long as raw's on air they should be happy. and USA was happy to take smackdown after a year of shit ratings so that should tell you how secure raw's place is.

Btw for THE ROAD TO THE BIGGEST WRESTLEMANIA EVEEERRRRRR we have... one title match noone actually wants to see booked. Is there actually any other matches on the card for wm32? I guess no zayn-owens, lesnar taker ambrose aj charlotte sasha dont have opponehts. The New Day vs the League of nations maybe? That is fucking uninspired. The wyatts cant beat kane and big show, they dont deserve to be on wm.

FAAAÀAAAAAAAAST LAAAAAANE ON THE ROAD TO.... nothing really

Their TV income may be secure but I still can't see them sitting around saying that it doesn't matter if Roman Reigns gets booed or not. It won't kill their TV money, at least not for a while, but it can have a huge effect on a big event live Wrestlemania. Tens of thousands of unsold tickets + lost merch + a lower than expected boost in network subscribers can add up to tens of millions in lost income if the card is terrible. This year's Mania could be a serious wake up call.

big event *like* WM

Familys will still buy tickets and merch if the show was made less dull. Noone (who isnt a moron) is asking for it to be 97ecw, it can still be family friendly and have an exciting angle or actual characters with personalities once in a while.

Tens of thousands of unsold tickets + lost merch + a lower than expected boost in network subscribers can add up to tens of millions in lost income if the card is terrible

is that what we're talking about though? i'm pretty sure people buy Roman Reigns merchandise and i'm pretty sure that putting Reigns in the main-event isn't going to lose them tens of thousands of ticket sales. the booing thing is totally true of course, they're gonna look ridiculous if this goes the way it looks likes going and he gets the Royal Rumble treatment again to close Mania. but don't they always go on now about how the Mania brand is a stronger draw than any card they put together?

nxt and by extension the cruiserweight thing and breaking ground -- all the 'minor league' stuff -- feel more and more cynical the crappier the main product gets, like they really only do exist to retain the $9.99/mo from the 'niche' that rejects a roman/HHH main event, basically negating all main roster criticism.

yeah this is true i think, and it totally works because the alternative they're providing with NXT is really that good - totally agree that it's in a lull right now (in particular they've gotta work out how to make Finn Balor something more than a look and an entrance or he's gonna go the way of Neville) but as you say, it's about to take off in the not-too-distant future and the card they've put together for Dallas looks absolutely thrilling, a million miles more interesting than anything they'll be able to rustle up for WM.

And all this is kinda fine, I think? If you think about the times historically when the product has been at its absolute worst (in the recent-ish past I think you can make a good case that 2007-2010 things were as bad as they've ever been, entertainment-wise) there was no refuge to take! you either watched the shit stuff or you got nothing.

i understand where the accusation of cynicism is coming from and it's valid to say that having NXT gives them some breathing room to let Raw just be total turd, but it's not like if NXT wasn't around there would be some guarantee that all the smarks would stop paying for the Network and force the company to sit up and take notice. WWE's been shit loads of times while barely catering to the hardcore fans and they've always got by. I wouldn't wish NXT away in the hope that they might somehow be forced to improve the booking on the main show. Seems like a fools errand while VKM is running things.

if anyone is really dissatisfied i suppose the answer is to just stop paying? i've stopped (cashflow problems around Xmas meaning I had to cut out a few subscription services for a little while) and it's totally fine, it's not like the torrent sites don't have everything up 5 mins after the broadcast is over anyway. steal everything all the time imo

Rewatching the main event as i was half asleep when i saw it earlier.

Ambrose being caught by Lesnar for a suplex was terrific. Always love a shield call back too, the table spots were great in showing what you really need to do to stop lesnar, instead of a shit wyatt spot. Also Sable has to be pissed, why does everyone hate her husbands genitals?

All a perfectly fine match, although im a bit disappointed as i just wanted to see some more brock and the overall storytelling for reigns at wm is very underwhelming.

Also i feel like crazy ambrose just doesnt match his character. Stop pointing at the wrestlemania sign and go wild.

For what was a really fun match, boy is the crowd fucking dead or mildly booing at the end.

I just really dont see how reigns is the annointed one. Hes good, sometimes excellent but just noone cares. At all. Noone cares. He is not a compelling character. Fighting a guy who has not defended his title once and never won it off anyone really.

this was exactly why NJPW refused outright to a deal that was (reportedly) floated where WWE got to broadcast New Japan stuff on the Network (god how amazing would that have been?!), saying that they'd have to be chumps to agree to a situation where the WWE were promoting all the New Japan guys and just waiting to snaffle any talent that got over outside of Japan. of course as it turned out the WWE just shrugged their shoulders and did exactly that anyway.

Oh come on now, are wrestlers cattle? It's the same argument I heard over the Evolve partnership, 'ZOMG Hunter is poaching the indies, WWE is gonna kill the scene' etc.

I just really dont see how reigns is the annointed one. Hes good, sometimes excellent but just noone cares. At all. Noone cares. He is not a compelling character. Fighting a guy who has not defended his title once and never won it off anyone really.

They're not booking for us. I'm OK with that, I get what I want from the midcard far more often. Doesn't stop me wishing they'd built Reigns slower and steadier, though, because it was starting to work last year before WWE panicked over injuries thinning the upper-card talent pool, floored the gas and ruined it.

Their booking of Reigns follows a tried and tested pattern, they've done it countless times over and it's always worked before. So WWE is having trouble fathoming why this time would be any different, missing the blindingly obvious fact that the audience en masse doesn't buy Reigns as The Guy, because he's clearly not ready for the job.

This isn't like the Cena thing, where the fan base was far more divided, and passionate about it. This is a case of WWE letting everyone see their booking hand, and the fans actually seeing how they're being manipulated, and just being fed up with it.

Here's another metaphor. Imagine your favourite song being butchered by an ill-prepared cover band - that's Roman Reigns in this situation.

Was never saying that wwe was killing anything, nor that wrestlers didn't have a mind of their own. Simply speculating that maybe njpw will be more loathe to cross-promote with wwe or allow their contracted guys to appear on wwe programming than they were 6 months ago. Could well be totally wrong! As I say, only speculating

Was never saying that wwe was killing anything, nor that wrestlers didn't have a mind of their own. Simply speculating that maybe njpw will be more loathe to cross-promote with wwe or allow their contracted guys to appear on wwe programming than they were 6 months ago. Could well be totally wrong! As I say, only speculating

I wasn't commenting on that, but on those who would extrapolate from it that WWE is out to crush all that we hold dear. WWE is making overtures in Japan for sure with the Network launch there, and knowing they're a bigger brand than NJPW is in its home country, so only natural that New Japan would be careful.

Their booking of Reigns follows a tried and tested pattern, they've done it countless times over and it's always worked before. So WWE is having trouble fathoming why this time would be any different, missing the blindingly obvious fact that the audience en masse doesn't buy Reigns as The Guy, because he's clearly not ready for the job.

They used to pay more attention to crowd reactions, now it's more about who they want on top for whatever reason and the crowd will learn to like it. It's not that Reigns isn't ready to the top guy, Bautista didn't have more experience than Reigns when he headlined Mania, but the crowd reactions week in and week out were way beyond anything Reigns gets.

The Batista thing was different, though, because they weren't so invested in him: they were hoping for a cheap Hollywood rub, and overestimated his value with the fan base as an in-ring guy (I mean, we're all OK with him in Guardians of the Galaxy, right?). Backing out of that wasn't as big a deal. But they've booked themselves into a corner with Reigns, who - and I maintain my stance on this - isn't ready. Whatever charisma he might have inside the ring does not translate to his general demeanour, and that's a massive problem.

MacDara - I think NoTimesBeforeTime is talking about Wrestlemania 21 when Batista took on HHH and won the title for the first time.

Thanks, I missed that part. But even at that, as green as he was between the ropes, Batista had a certain something that Roman Reigns does not have, or at least doesn't show. What does 'experience' count for, anyway?

I agree. Roman has all the signifiers of "it" without seeming to actually have "it". The anti-Daniel Bryan.

They've ignored crowd sentiment and apathy before (King of the Ring 95 being the most obvious example I can think of? Maybe also remembering Jack Swagger once won mitb and the big gold belt) but they also *noticed*, better too late than never and all that. If Roman beat Kane's record and won the Rumble and won at WM30, fine, Bryan could have still beat HHH but ever since his boring match with Orton at SS and injury like a week after, no-one has cared. That was 18 months ago he lost his heat and they've done nothing but fuck up every aspect since, leading to more and more apathy.

All while they've had crowds cheer and root for Cesaro, Ambrose, Brock, Owens, Cena, Ziggler, Rollins, Rusev, New Day, hell even Neville gets a better reaction and has shown he can lead from the top better when he was nxt champ as it grew into a big deal.

I cant see how this ends, accept Reigns is the only major star or stop watching, or just dont watch his segments, I guess. But people are already doing that and they are losing thousands of people a week. And its making people frustrated about every other aspect of the show.

The Attitude era WWF beat WCW because Rocky, Austin, Foley, HHH, Angle, Taker and a few others all seemed like they could realistically be the champ and demand yr attention; while as well documented Hogan and Nash et al used their politics or backstage shit got in the way of Goldberg, DDP etc. achieving similar respect and it became a mess. While maybe not on par with the Attitude era guys, and they do have a lot of injuries now, WWE is currently fucking stacked with top talent. And yet the Wyatts lose to Kane, Big Show and Ryback... so either Reigns first feud is against a Wyatt who cant beat Big Show, or against fucking *clapclapclapclapclap PLEASE RETIRE* big show.

so a dude who has successfully spoilered shit in the past (or rather, successfully teased it when a big deal was going down on a show that week) has told R/squaredcircle

Regardless of whatever trash last night was, watch Raw from beginning to end tonight.

You just might get an early christmas present

i am a SUCKER for this shit. just when i thought i was out.....

That was 18 months ago he lost his heat and they've done nothing but fuck up every aspect since, leading to more and more apathy.

i dunno if i agree with this, i think there have been multiple occasions, notably the WM 31 main event and the beatdown on HHH at TLC, where they've got the fans onside with Roman as a top guy. They just can't sustain it, he always reverts to type as this smug dislikable asshole

Yeah, I was talking about Batista at WM 21. The main event was supposed to be Orton-HHH, but Orton choked and/or crowds liked Batista more, so he got to be the one to destroy Evolution for good and beat HHH for the belt. The WWE used to know how to deal with this kind of thing -- Orton wasn't ready and Batista was red hot, so they switched directions. They blew off the HHH-Orton feud at Royal Rumble -- Orton (!!!) got three months of megapush before they gave up and decided to rebuild him later, which is way more than almost anyone else would have gotten. The Reigns push has been going on for two years and he keeps getting less and less popular!

if this crazily rumored thing (LOL GOOD JOB KEEPING ME HERE WWE) doesn't result in SHANE O MAC i'm cancelling the network

jk 1997 raw is so good right now

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HOLY SHIT