battle of the hoops unicorns

giannis went missing from the ballot. how unicornish of him.

leaving giannis out of this because he seems to have separated himself from the pack

I sort of think it would be crazy not to vote giannis at this point, but ppl can feel free to specify their votes with "I would take him over giannis" if they want

at this point my feeling is that it's giannis >>> jokic > embiid = porzingis = towns but it's a really tough call

argh that should be 6.1 assists for jokic btw

giannis the obvs choice if made eligible, i voted zinger prob wld go with embiid if not for his injury history, jokic and towns fairly far behind imo for being one way players / having the wrong mindtype

Agreed. Though I'm just going to choose embiid anyway

porzingis’ numbers are objectively the worst of the bunch, including basically every other stat, but it’s weird it just FEELS like he’s on a different level than the rest, hard to tell if it’s him playing in NYC or the big scoring numbers or what. I think any order of these 4 guys is reasonable tho including zinger last

the thing u have to be able to do is project into the future

yeah def that’s kind of what I was getting at, it’s easy to see him becoming a more efficient scorer and playing great defense, then again he might not and it will be easy to point to his peers being better than him at this stage of their careers and wonder why we believed otherwise

embiid takes this pretty easily imo, zinger hasn't been injured much yet but certainly profiles as an injury/short career guy so i wouldn't take him with longevity in mind.

i'm not overly impressed with the other two.

feel like ppl are underrating jokic a little here, out of the 5 he’s the best passer, best rebounder, most efficient scorer, and has already been the focal point of the best offense in the NBA

it just seems so dang hard to build a winning team that revolves around a one-way all offense big man.

i wanna vote for ben simmons

of these 4 i think embiid is getting to the point that he's so good it would be worth the injury risk. then i'd go KAT > zinger > jokic

i guess that's the chalk ranking but i could easily flip KP and KAT. i think ultimately i'd take KAT's mobility and offensive versatility over KP being like a 3 and D center, basically, but i think KP has elite defensive potential and can clearly be the focal point of an offense. still seems like his realistic outcome is like... a very good version of miami chris bosh which is great if you have that dominant #1 wing next to him.

jokic is fun obv but the defense is worrisome and i wonder how his game would translate to the playoffs

I really considered including him, maybe I should have xp

jokic is fun obv but the defense is worrisome and i wonder how his game would translate to the playoffs

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:24 PM (fifty-one seconds ago)

you don't think being arguably the most impactful half court offensive player in the league would translate to the offs??

I swear if he played in new york and porzingis played in denver people would view them a lot differently

simmons def more of a unicorn than kat or jokic

you don't think being arguably the most impactful half court offensive player in the league would translate to the offs??

I swear if he played in new york and porzingis played in denver people would view them a lot differently

― k3vin k., Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:26 PM (twenty-nine seconds ago) Bookmark

jokic is not arguably the most impactful half court offensive player in the league

my issue is just about when playoff games get down to 1 on 1 scoring whether jokic's impact would be minimized

i think i would take simmons over all these guys... prob even embiid bcuz of health

simmons shooting and defense still huge question marks hes obvs xtremely talented but cld still end up maxing out in the gifted but flawed range, feel like hes at least somewhat benefiting in ppls projections from being a red shirt rookie

he'll prob never be able to shoot but having a guy who can credibly play 1-5 with that level of basketball IQ feels like the most valuable possible thing you could have in today's NBA

aside from having that guy and him being able to shoot (bron, KD etc)... but even if simmons is just 1 level below those guys that could still be the best player in the nba in 5 years

he'll prob never be able to shoot but having a guy who can credibly play 1-5 with that level of basketball IQ feels like the most valuable possible thing you could have in today's NBA

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:36 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he cant really credibly play the 1-5 its more of a novelty thing on a not that good team, in fact his bad shooting really limits his positional flexibility, if u cant shoot and youre super tall in todays nba u prob shd be playing the 5, but its unclear if hell ever be a good enough defender to be there, not to mention that he has a really good teammate who plays there, embiid can shoot tho so its seems like using simmons as a driver in five out situations and as a facilitator at the elbows cld work

Kinda wonder if Brow should be on here? He's only 12 months older than Embiid.

assuming normal health for these guys:

—KATs stock has taken a huge beating over the 12 months, rightfully so. If he cant get to at least a league average defense then he'll never reach above where he's at currently.

—I love Jokic as much as anyone but I have concerns about his conditioning and willingness to be 'the guy' took him about 2/3 of the season last year to get it going and he's been pretty passive so far this season as well, even after the Milsap injury he hasn't seemed to have that killer instinct.

—Zinger has to get more rebounds imo, no excuse not to be getting 9-10 a game. And he's a bit of a black hole, 1.4 assists per36 is really low for someone who has the ball so much.

—Embiid takes this for me (since Giannis is excluded), biggest concern for me is his turnover rate. Also shoots too many threes. I've seen a lot of possessions ending with him having to chuck a bad long two cos he didnt make a move early enough in the shot clock and had to repost or the ball came back to him after everything else failed.

simmons def has all the tools to be a great defender tho if he cld put that part together itd prob put him over the top into superstar status

when i say simmons can play 1-5 i mean that you can pretty much start any line up with him and not worry too much about which "position" he's going to play. it provides an incredible amount of flexibility! i think he'll be able to guard centers and guards on switches pretty seamlessly. it's not like he's gonna be banging in the post for 20 minutes a game.

i mean it took durant like 10 years until he would really protect the rim but i don't see why simmons couldn't get there

short arms, for one.

btw the NBA really has to do a better job of making its stats more easily findable. why is it so hard to find leaders in PPP in the half court or whatever

anyway jokic was top 10 in ORTG last year, was the focal point of the #1 offense in the league once he became a starter, and all the synergy numbers basically showed him being a half court savant in terms of scoring in the paint and creating offense. he also crushes all these dudes in real plus minus, if you put any stock into that at all

I think the fact that his impact is spread out over several very different skills makes it hard for people to appreciate but it's pretty hard at this point, based on the numbers we have at hand, to argue that he is not at the very least right with the rest of these guys (giannis excluded), if not out in front.

I def hope he becomes more comfortable as a first option scorer but if he ends up being a guy who gives you 22-13-6 on like .630 ts%...that's a superstar, and arguably just as good as porzingis's 30-7-2 on slightly above average efficiency

also in terms of defense, rebounding is actually a pretty important part of defense iirc, and he is the best of this group

many xps

i havent seen too much evidence simmons can stay w guards on D when ive watched even if hes "playing point guard" on offense hes always cross matched to a forward, also having him as a non shooting primary ballhandler is exactly the type of things teams will punish mercilessly in the playoffs if the sixers ever get there, just go under every screen bump him back a step on all those weird running hooks he takes etc

didn't include brow because I felt like as he's in his 6th season he's already more of a known entity than these dudes, also he's way ahead numbers wise

I swear if he played in new york and porzingis played in denver people would view them a lot differently

― k3vin k., Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:26 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i agree with this in that zinger would be viewed as another tantalizing but probably flawed nuggets prospect.

http://bkref.com/tiny/CAwyh

the are-we-sure-porzingis-is-that-good update

zinger started off on total fire and has been very bad since

still his potential as a two way player is xtremely tantalizing

he carries more of a load offensively than any of the other 3

why is he bad at all the other stuff then lol

i don't think he is personally

also he plays out of position

yeah that might have something to do with it, though he considers himself a PF and who knows whether he could really handle full center minutes at this stage of his career

you definitely can't ignore his potential and I grant that numbers aren't everything but...there aren't a whole lot of encouraging signs when you look you look at most of the publicly available stuff. and other than getting a lot of blocks I'm not aware of any of the defensive numbers being in love with him either

Kristaps Porzingis: ‘I’m tired. I’m tired. I’m so tired right now’ https://t.co/XifNxZiPry

— Kurt Helin (@basketballtalk) January 4, 2018

the team he's on is still such a trainwreck that i don't take much from some of his more questionable stats.

wow great timing

his assist and rebounding numbers are, plainly, atrocious. he's pretty elite at avoiding turnovers, tho this might be because he never passes

the jury is still out on him as an efficient scorer -- you can definitely make the case that a young player like him has to get buckets first and then figure out how to score efficiently. but he's a league average 3p shooter right now and is shooting less than 50% on twos, and his percentage of total FGA that are between 10ft and the 3pt line has increased from 31% last year to 44% this year

knicks shd cut bait and trade him to the celtics imho

he does need to learn how to pass....i think he would rebound more if he played more center and played less w/kanter.

i was dumbstruck to discover that the knicks have to give minutes to kanter, o'quinn, AND jo noah to the extent that hernangomez, who i really like, barely plays.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/1/11/16877958/kristaps-porzingis-superstar-injury-history

yeah wld agree that injuries are the biggest threat to zinger superstardom, the health record of guys his height is not too good

maybe all the guys in this poll are bad actually, embiid is still as undisciplined as a rookie and the other two cant defend

I would just like to point out that I have been otm itt

this thread would be your magnum opus if only you could delete that one double post in your moment of weakness

it’s fuckin embiid btw

― k3vin k., Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:20 PM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

it’s fuckin embiid btw

― k3vin k., Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:20 PM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

once again I implore the good folks of the jury to recognize the immense pressure visited on me by my peers and also the fact that embiid was in the middle of a really nice run at the time

i wanna vote for ben simmons

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, December 26, 2017 1:19 PM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

jordan really went hard for ben for a while

i think KAT could have something to say here if he ever gets out of minnesota

simmons never got better in three years, possibly got worse. hard to do

if you put bam on this list you'd at least have one guy who has played in an nba finals, food for thought

and if you put giannis in here you wouldn't even have a conversation

if you put bam on this list you'd at least have one guy who has played in an nba finals, food for thought

― J0rdan S., Thursday, November 18, 2021 8:17 PM (twenty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

bye troll

giannis was explicitly excluded for being too advanced

zinger being on here speaks to a more innocent time

zinger came out that season on fire made the allstar team then tore his acl rip

what they don’t want you to know about porzingis is he’s had the exact same stats every year since then perhaps even has been better but was so overrated that year it’s skewed everyone’s perception of him

I mean you expect young bigs to get better in their mid 20s and he just didn’t

the thing with zinger was that he had the promise of being an elite floor stretcher on offense and an elite rim protector on defense. there still is basically no one in the NBA who has that skill set. some are close in various ways but an exponential arc in his game back from his healthy knicks days would have made him a unicorn, like KAT crossed with roy hibbert or something. alas he can still shoot bcuz he’s so tall but the injuries robbed him of all defensive value, and also he keeps getting hurt.

also it’s insane no one ever made him figure out a way to score over 6’ 6” guys in the post, just completely inexcusable

Zinger still looks the most like an actual unicorn out there, like he just doesn’t make sense by the laws of physics and human anatomy. But I guess maybe that’s why he can’t stay healthy…

yeah zinger couldve been an alltimer but the human body just isnt designed to be 7-3

just some fun comparing big dudes. through first 8 seasons, per 36 minutes

player A: 23.2 pts, 10.1 reb, 4.9 ast, 1.3 stl, 1.4 blk; .532/.287/.717, .600 ts%, 23.7 PER; 2 MVPs, 1 DPOY, 1 championship

player B: 24.8 pts, 6.4 reb, 6.2 ast, 1.5 stl, 0.8 blk; .479/.329/.744, .566 ts%, 26.9 PER; 2 MVPs, 0 DPOY, 0 championships

player C: 23.5 pts, 12.2 reb, 7.5 ast, 1.4 stl, 0.8 ast; .546/.344/.827, .625 ts%, 27.4 PER; 2 MVPs, 0 DPOY, 0 championships

player D: 30.2 pts, 12.9 reb, 3.9 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.9 blk; .492/.338/.814, .604 ts%, 27.3 PER; 0 MVPs, 0 DPOY, 0 championships

player E: 21.2 pts, 11.4 reb, 2.9 ast, 0.7 stl, 2.4 blk; .507/.194/.692, .554 ts%, 25.3 PER; 2 MVPs, 0 DPOY, 2 championships

player F: 26.2 pts, 11.8 reb, 2.6 ast, 0.7 stl, 2.6 blk;
.577/.059/.534, .583 ts%, 27.9 PER; 1 MVP, 0 DPOY, 1 championship

without looking this up...
a - giannis
b -
c -
d - embiid
e - duncan
f - shaq

i am stumped on b and c bc i know one of them is jokic and i cant figure out the other.

(ok i looked it up, lol at making player b a big, feels like thats misleading!!!!!!)

just giving a little context, careers take different shapes, have evolutions and so forth :)

merry christmas ILH!

C is Jokic, right? No historical big would shoot 3s like that.

xp to kevin, that is true however player b has played literally every position more minutes than the center position in his career including PG and i object

okay i figured it out and kevin is a con artist of the highest order, i salute his work

it’s not supposed to be a con! just showcasing some of the best to do it the last 25 years or so

who is it

This has been bugging me since last night. I've thought I had a it a couple times.

i looked at the list of multiple mvp winners and it doesnt seem like its any of them unless its dr j in the aba or some shit but im not about to try to figure that out

oh i missed the per 36 part

dont need to go back that far for things of this nature

I'm not about to figure out per 36 myself, but Lebron played a ton of minutes his first eight years, so his numbers are going to look a little weird. Is Lebron B?

yes

basketball reference has the per 36 stats fwiw

I know, but I'm being lazy.

yeah I did per 36 because lebron averaged 39.9 mins a game his first 8 seasons which even though it’s documented and I watched a lot of it I still can’t really believe

Fun comparison!

printing this thread out and plastering it all over my walls

i definitely voted for jokic here even though there's no proof

― ciderpress, Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:30 PM (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

btw because I started this thread no one is allowed to quote my post where I said the answer was embiid, that never happened

if we get jokic vs tatum in the finals it could end up being a really interesting data point in a larger positional value debate

even putting embiid's specific issues aside i think we just saw in this series why ppl think wings > bigs, generally speaking, given what tatum was able to do at the end of game 6 & his overall performance in game 7

i don't think that tatum necessarily showed that he's better than embiid in that series, tho he might be, just that he often shows (when he is on) why his archetype of player is the most sought after in the league, even if he also kinda leaves something to be desired when compared to, like, peak kawhi or whatever

i've thought since last playoffs that even tho he was not the best player in any series after round 1 i'd prob take tatum over any player in the league aside from giannis bcuz of the position he plays. but if jokic knocks everyone out including a boston team that would have the best ability of any team left to test him defensively, then he may be the true hoops unicorn of them all

tatum is a great player man but I mean, as you alluded to, he’s sort of an ersatz lebron/kawhi archetype you’re referring to. his specific value is in no small part thanks to playing on a very deep switchy team on which he happens to be the best player. imo…

I will wait a month or so (winky face) to post my giannis thoughts but the short version is he’s a big toe and a couple of really hot nights at the free throw line away from being perceived quite differently…

his specific value is in no small part thanks to playing on a very deep switchy team on which he happens to be the best player. imo…

he has a well built roster around him but his specific value is in being able to get a shot off against any player in the league at the end of a series deciding playoff game, and having the ability to make them. or perhaps more generally what we saw yesterday or in game 6 vs milwaukee last year where he is a very specific type of unguardable offensive fulcrum who also can't easily be exploited on defense bcuz he's pretty good at 6' 9"

I will wait a month or so (winky face) to post my giannis thoughts but the short version is he’s a big toe and a couple of really hot nights at the free throw line away from being perceived quite differently…

this is true although he's at a level where the staying power of one title will only last so long. he's probably out of the grace period now, quite frankly. the expectation for the next 2-3 years, regardless of what else happens w/ the bucks' roster, is that we'll see them in the finals again at least once at minimum. and if he doesn't win another one it will in all likelihood result in lots of ppl having more explicit conversations along the lines of what you just said about him. and look if jokic or tatum win it this year they'll be on the same clock too. that's the game. but certainly giannis getting the first has helped, and you could argue it was a funky title! the nets were hurt, the hawks were a paper tiger, all 4 bubble conference finals teams were evidently sapped of energy. so we'll see, lots of chapters still left to be written for these guys (except maybe embiid...)

did we ever determine whether jokic was the most impactful half court offensive player in the league

he was pretty impactful against markieff morris

sadly for us all the snarky revives of this thread lose their impact given that k3v reminded us that he voted for embiid :[ the honesty is very much appreciated tho

lol

hahaha

this thread would be your magnum opus if only you could delete that one double post in your moment of weakness

it’s fuckin embiid btw
― k3vin k., Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:20 PM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

it’s fuckin embiid btw

― k3vin k., Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:20 PM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

― Spottie, Thursday, November 18, 2021 5:22 PM (one year ago) bookmarkflaglink

it’s Shakespearean