options for the offended 51

yes, that that argument would be dull and solipsistic in the extreme, to the point of making others incredulous that a person is still making it when he has already made his position clear

All I'm saying is that your "system is in place, the coding is done" argument is not very good. If it would be, ILX code would still be the same as in 2000.

MY MESSAGEBOARD, RIGHT OR WRONG

http://www.ballet.co.uk/images/suzanne_farrell/pk_don_quixote_momchil_mladenov_eric_ragan_windmill_sighting_500.jpg

can I just

the problem is having any constructive discussion about how to modify the current system is near impossible

― 鬼の手 (Edward III), Friday, November 27, 2009 12:13 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah whatever you say

― electrical audio's sm57 (electricsound), Friday, November 27, 2009 12:17 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark

Like I said way upthread, I don't want to make any changes to SB for the next six months, to see if all the changes we've already made make a big difference.

I'm kinda against ideas like Tuomas's one anyway because it makes SB a much higher profile part of the site than it needs to be. It should really be a last resort type of thing, and people really shouldn't be getting banned from it every week or two. If it's so high profile and frequent that you need to keep a permanent eye on your SB count, I think something's fundamentally wrong, and ideas like that are just window dressing.

Expiry is really making a dramatic difference, though. Already the SB page has gone from a fair number of people getting close to a ban to effectively nobody. There's no-one even past 40, and only two people past halfway. If SB is still seen as a big problem next summer then yeah, we need to look again at how it works/if it should be here at all. I don't think it will be, though.

I can tell by your literary references that youre one of those "arty" types

xp jd

yeah chasing windmills is so super arty

thanks stet--that all makes sense. only thing i'd say re: tuomas' idea is that it would prevent a certain situation recently where a longtime poster was purportedly blindsided by the fact that they were suggest banned. but i understand not wanting to make it high profile.

i had either totally forgotten or didn't know that sunsetting SB's was happening

Tuomas, I have no problem with you or anyone else suggesting changed to ILX moderation, but when those suggestions involve work for someone, and when you make a point of saying how easy it seems like it should be to do, you're not doing your case any favours with the people with the chops to actually implement them.

system getting changed means the system works crowd was WRONG btw ;)

i know piling on tuomas is hilarious safe fun for everybody but:

However, it's not like the actual coders are against suggestions that might make ILX better: they've even started a thread asking for those kind of suggestions. I'm just making two more. If the coders say, it's too much work, we don't have the time to do it, that's fine by me.

I'm fine with that, Stet. Let's wait for 6 months and see what happens.

Just want to say one thing though: SB has been high profile because prominent posters have gotten banned due to it, and sometimes for not so obvious reasons. Things that might help people understand those reasons, and hence not to get banned (such as my two ideas), should make it less high profile, not more.

(xxxx-post)

Things that might help people understand those reasons

when somebody tells you that they've gotten your point already & then says "I'm sb-ing you if you say the same thing even one more time" and then you say it three more times, that's a possible indicator of what people are clicking sb for.

Yeah, but I think Kate's example proves it's not always that obvious.

x-post what? has that happened?

I agree that the expiry (or lack thereof) was a major issue with the initial implementation of the sb system, it's good that it's in place now

still don't understand why people feel the need to vehemently defend the system against critics to the point where they're attacking the people making the criticisms, especially when the mods have made it perfectly clear that sb isn't going anywhere

http://mosquito.25.free.fr/LFS/Fakes/en/Troll%27s%20Brain%20and%20memory.gif

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2696731859_ef5517a5e5.jpg

kudos

that is good work

also, the "but who will do the coding?" question is irrelevant

I can code, but I wouldn't write something I knew would never get implemented

proper process would be 1) discussion, 2) mod acceptance, 3) implementation

we're at step 1 and getting worked up about step 3 is a bit premature

proper process would be 1) discussion, 2) mod acceptance, 3) implementation

whether this is actually the proper process needs to be discussed on at least 100 threads before I'll accept it

xp

the "who will do the coding" thing is absolutely irrelevant, yeah. your 1,2,3 is otm. i think doing it in reverse, which is my understanding of how SB was came to be, is what got us in this situation in the first place.

but a lot of comments on how SB should be changed seem to confuse 1) and 3), and skip 2). things being easy to implement in the heads of non-coders, or even coders who have not seen the ILX code, is not relevant to their argument. and bringing it up is bordering on antagonistic toward the people they're asking to do with the work.

i think doing it in reverse, which is my understanding of how SB was came to be, is what got us in this situation in the first place.

sorry, i'm sure more went on behind the scenes.

Well, certainly the discussion took part only after the implementation. At first people didn't even have any idea what the whole thing was.

to be clear, i don't actually want anyone to code any of these stupid suggestions, i want ilxors to stop feeling entitled to have technical changes made to ilx at their every whim

i really, seriously don't think anyone feels that way

Well, certainly the discussion took part only after the implementation. At first people didn't even have any idea what the whole thing was.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, December 2, 2009 6:53 AM (2 minutes ago)

how well i remember that terrible protracted grasping process.

xxp, jeez nick.

xp, lol

not that this is going to stop you, but this is all completely academic now, tuomas. it's pretty clear from the numbers being posted on http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=77&threadid=70310&action=showall&bookmarkedmessageid=1163054 that no one is ever going to get SBed again. i have no idea how anyone could rack up 51 in six months without being obnoxious enough for mods to intervene. SB was fun, but it is essentially dead now, so don't worry about it any more.

tbf there was a lot of discussion before implementation, it was just with mods. i don't know that something like that is something you can really discuss beforehand and get any sort of conclusion on, because guessing what effect something is going to have on ILX is ... tricky, and deeply subjective. eg, I think SNA changed the site's dynamic in a lot of ways, but there was no way to know whether it'd be good or bad except to see how it turned out in practice. It too had to be meddled with afterwards, but I think it turned out OK. xxxp

how well i remember that terrible protracted grasping process.

― estela, Tuesday, December 1, 2009 3:59 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

more like prolapsed gaping abscess

u all arguing against suggesting code changes are being so fucking dense - the reason people continue to ask for changes is despite the mods general so not gonna happen attitude these suggestions are often enacted - and thus an incentive to suggest more changes is born

iirc in an ironic twist no one coldve ever seen coming the sb system was originally conceptualized by a prominent poster who was l8r 51d off teh bord himself

whether this is actually the proper process needs to be discussed on at least 100 threads before I'll accept it

you know who else used sarcasm HITLER

there is no limit on the autoban we all know that

― DZL (deeznuts), Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:42 PM

The limit is 50. You are at 23.

― Keith, Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:43 PM

Asking for changes isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Asking them in the context of "btw you totally suck and everything you do is wrong and the only way I MIGHT shut up about how much I hate what you're doing is if you do this thing I am assuming is simple" is what we are finding annoying.

jus curious dan cause i know yr a lol computer guy do u or any non keith and stet entities ever work on the site or is it just those 2 sweet dudes

To my knowledge, it's just them. I wanted to get involved but (despite my posting frequency making it seem otherwise) I ran out of spare time to really do anything significant to contribute.

i am in charge of popular stylesheet caek.css. push your changes to me via git if you have any.

ah so thx xp

tbf there was a lot of discussion before implementation, it was just with mods. i don't know that something like that is something you can really discuss beforehand and get any sort of conclusion on, because guessing what effect something is going to have on ILX is ...

Well, I think it would've nice for at least to let people voice their opinions. When ILX went registered-only, there was a huge discussion before it happened, and I think it was ultimately for the good. It's always better to have some transparency than not, because then people won't feel like there's a "mod conspiracy" to mess with them. Even if you've already decied to implement a new feature, I can't see how having people discuss it beforehand could do any harm; at the very least it might help to pinpoint some potential problems in the feature that the mods might have not considered. The way SB was installed, at first people didn't even know what exactly it does, which created a lot of confusion.

eg, I think SNA changed the site's dynamic in a lot of ways, but there was no way to know whether it'd be good or bad except to see how it turned out in practice. It too had to be meddled with afterwards, but I think it turned out OK.

The difference is that SNA is an optional feature that can be ignored by those people who don't care about it (like me). That is very much not the case with SBs.

i wld b willing 2 code but only something that autoreplaced posts w cool unicode designs

The way SB was installed, at first people didn't even know what exactly it does, which created a lot of confusion.

Some people. . . still don't understand it

Asking them in the context of "btw you totally suck and everything you do is wrong and the only way I MIGHT shut up about how much I hate what you're doing is if you do this thing I am assuming is simple" is what we are finding annoying.

How many people have done this though? For every change I've suggested, I've tried to provide the reasons I think it would be sensible, and I've certainly never said the mods or anyone sucks. I don't think they do.

those 2 sentiments are generally not combined in the same post tbf

When ILX went registered-only, there was a huge discussion before it happened, and I think it was ultimately for the good.
that's not really the same; you can tell how that's going to work and there's a clear decision to be made. With this the problem it was solving didn't have clear edges, the solution didn't have clear edges, and what would actually happen was hard to predict. It'd have been exactly like the SB discussions were, except with even fewer facts.

It's always better to have some transparency than not
Agreed on this. There could always be a better job done, but we are getting better, i think. Compared to the v1 launch where I basically went "it's on, have at it" and the v4 launch where Keith posted a monster changelog, i'm def aware of the need to explain stuff.

(SNA, btw, affects the smaller boards because there threads are way more visible than before; even if none of their users ever step outside into the zinglands)

Asking for changes isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Asking them in the context of "btw you totally suck and everything you do is wrong and the only way I MIGHT shut up about how much I hate what you're doing is if you do this thing I am assuming is simple" is what we are finding annoying.

what mod persecution fantasy thread is this happening on?

maybe the one where you accuse the mods of having a persecution fantasy?