A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

(not to mention the fact that a lot of the most popular white music [way more popular than Arcade Fire] is still very miscegenated [which I guess has been pointed out upthread])

I'd say it would be an over-simplification to go with that 'played out' argument. Commercial radio in America would not accept much post-punk or other rock with black influences or affectations, and then you had the later more straightforward pop r'n'b sounding musical attempts by Scritti Politti and others (and all kindsa rap and reggae and African sounds and Chicago house happening simultaneously), so it seemed to me like there were various wells that were being drawn from but not emptied. Pavement seemed to take post-Big Black noiserock (that drew from Wire) and eventually add melody, REM jangle, and songcraft back to indie in a way that was very different from grunge's hard rock and alt rock hybrid. Although eventually Pavement lost their urgency as Malkmus embraced Brit-folk and prog. Sasha asserts on the podcast that "Smells Like Teen Spirit" had a funky rhythm.

i'm not sure how one goes from saying that the indie band that most excites them right now is grizzly bear to saying that they go to indie shows and pine for rhythm.

also if there was anyone in indie who would try and unironically imitate r. kelly, it would be devandra banhart. (for all i know he already has.)

I mean, given that we all agree that indie bands such as Battles, Vampire Weekend, CocoRosie, etc do have some elements of black music, I think the question he's really pussyfooting around with this whole piece is more "Why do we STILL have boring, revisionist, funkless Leave It Beaver bullshit bands like Arcade Fire and Band Of Horses and Clap Your Hands and Hold Steady when everyone has such easy access to such diverse music?"

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 03:28 (1 hour ago) Link

why does this indie music WITH 'elements of black music' still sound boring and funkless. i mean seriously, cocorosie?? im sure there are mostly-white-sounding indie rock bands that sound less bland just as there are crazy interesting genre hopping weirdos like missy elliott or whatever.

i guess im just repeating strongo but yeah, too much idealizing of 'miscegenation' as ideal. sometimes i dont like to throw all the ingredients into one pot

xpost I thought immediately of Will Oldham's cover of "Ignition", but I guess that was a couple of years ago.

was actually kind of thinking about this issue of vocals while listening to some mid period (post S&G, pre Graceland) paul simon records ... and how his voice always sounds very distinctively his own, no matter how strong the influence of zydeco ('that was your mother') or gospel or whatever on each individual song ... he really tended to avoid that pat obvious charicature of black vox but still seemed to incorporate these different musical influences

not saying its an 'ideal,' just an example of effect bouncing of genre ideas

did anyone else hear that story about the rapture talking to timbaland to produce a couple of tracks for their last album, but even with him being enthusiastic about the idea and wanting to cut them a special deal, the fee was their entire recording budget or something?

also battles has a black member whose dad is an accomplished and revered jazz musician. they're coming from a different place than basically every single band mentioned here or in sjf's article.

Even without that, Battles has gone on the record saying they basically discovered weird detours of hip-hop and electronic music via the same internet that everyone has.

strongo saying that asking arcade fire to embrace black music rather than what they like is just as retarded as asking trae to embrace springsteen is the most otm thing said here.

the same trae who rapped over 'smells like teen spirit' on his last mixtape?

whatever maybe trae is a strawman use yung joc or styles p or whoever you want.

not like rapping over 'smells like teen spirit' is embracing a whole culture of music (which is what sfj is basically asking for, tho i doubt you read this article). especially in that two/three month kitschy post-'party like a rockstar' period.

Most rap dudes already love rock though.

You've seen 'em at Arcade Fire gigs or Battles or Metallica or Mellencamp?

Metallica, sure.

it's funny that LCD are brought up as one of the ignored strands of indie getting rhythm; I wonder now how the arcade fire record would've turned out if james murphy had've produced it, as was the plan.

I wonder now how the arcade fire record would've turned out if james murphy had've produced it, as was the plan.

lol what.

ok wait don't answer that i don't feel like derailing this thread over some brooklyn vegan rumor.

xxx-post

Swizz Beats worked with Metallica, Joe Budden raps over Metallica, Lil Jon sites Metallica as in influence for the new record.

where does hot chip fit into this?

hey, i'm just going off an interview i read. they're definitely getting remixed by him, i know that much. (xxp)

The heavily compressed frequencies of indie rock cause iPod headphones to vibrate, literally massaging Nick Southall's writing career.

yeah hot chip.

um white stripes?

this is really easy backseat driving for us, as we don't have a "point" to make, and we've had a night to think about it.

and sfj didn't 3 years?

didn't have*

ant dude give me some time, i only just clicked on this thread

um

uh

okay i got nothing

and sfj didn't 3 years?

I assumed this was written in a Bangsian fit of spontaneous inspiration

oh maybe. i was just referring to the ilm thead started by sfj (linked here by john d.) that basically introduces the idea brought up in the article.

from 4 years ago actually.

"About five years ago, indie rockers began to rediscover the pleasures of rhythm."

-SF/J

bears repeating

whatever maybe trae is a strawman use yung joc or styles p or whoever you want.

-- Jordan Sargent, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 05:02 (45 minutes ago) Link

the same yung joc who said on the radio he listens to gnarles barkley & my chemical romance and that his fav album is tougher than leather? the same styles p who gives props to the ramones & ended his last album with 3 rock remixes? etc etc big surprise ol' j sargent not knowing wtf hes talking bout as usual

haha okay ethan, yung joc really listens to my chemical romance.

and again, ending your album w/ 'rock remixes' does not equal the ideas brought up in the article.

You hafta keep in mind that since at least the mid 90s, contemporary rap & r&b is processed and packaged and mtved etc right next to / in the midst of the hated 'alternative rock' and pop-punk and assorted jock-rock etc which is all anathema to alienated pre-indie-kids. It doesn't help that then the jock types embrace both sets of icons - rappers and rock stars - as equal expressions of unadulterated power and whatever, sexual potency, enjoyment. It isn't the blackness which our hopeless boring white indie heroes retreat from; instead its just power--incarnated as the chosen representatives of a dominant culture which sells sexiness (not sex) as potency (both male and female) wrapped in a suffocating corporate marketing gauze. etc.

The problem is that the alternatives turned to are so reactionary; authenticity, purity, solitude, etc.-- I don't have any answers from this point, and I'm tired, but I think it looks more promising to start here than from like, 'um why don't white indie pplz like black music.' Anyways all of this was just a restatement of someones point up above but there have been a lot of intervening posts and people are still ignoring this so there

im sure he was just pretending to like my chemical romance in order to impress famous internet music critic sasha frere jones, indie pop musician john darnielle, and noted gay porn star jordan sargent

though it did impress venerable city paper writer ethan padgett.

Which Celebs would you invite to a circle jerk/gang bang

what an embarrassment of an article
the lame white guilt, the "i have black friends and/or musical influences!" middle eight, the arbitrary binary construction and segregation of 'white' music and 'black' music, the misconceptions of what it means for music to 'have rhythm', the ignorance/omission of the numerous bands who show musical diversity in all sorts of ways, etc.
painful to read

also indie types are crap at playing their instruments

Once again, Pavement.

sleepingbag OTM

sleepingbag OTM