At last the Geir Hongro Challenge!!

Verse 1:
I've got [A]two strong [B]arms, [C#m]blessings of [D]Babylon
with [Bm]time to [G]carry on and [F#m]try for [E]sins and [A]false al[B]arms
[C#m]So to A[D]merica the [D#]brave
[Bm]wise [A]men [D]save

Chorus:
[E]Near a [F#m]tree by a [E]river is a [A]hole in the [B]ground,
where an [F#m]old man of [E]?arran? goes a[D]round and a[A]round
And his [F#m]mind is a [E]beacon in the [A]veil of the [B]night,
for a [F#m]strange kind of [E]fashion there's a [D]wrong and a [A]right
But I'll [Bm]never [A]ever [D]fight [E]over [F#m]you [E]

Verse 2:
I've got [A]plans for [B]us, [C#m]nights in the [D]scullery
and [Bm]days in[G]stead of me, I [F#m]only [E]know what [A]to dis[B]cuss,
[C#m]oh, for [D]anything but [D#]light
[Bm]wise [A]men [D]fighting [E]over [F#m]you
[E]It's not [A]me you [B]see,
[C#m]seasons of [D]gasoline and [D#]gold
[Bm]wise [A]men [D]fold

Chorus:
[E]Near a [F#m]tree by a [E]river is a [A]hole in the [B]ground,
where an [F#m]old man of [E]aron[?] goes a[D]round and a[A]round
And his [F#m]mind is a [E]beacon in the [A]veil of the [B]night,
for a [F#m]strange kind of [E]fashion there's a [D]wrong and a [A]right
But I'll [Bm]never [A]ever [D]fight [E]over [G]you

Bridge:
[C]I've got [F]time to [Bb]kill, [A]sly looks in [D]corridors with[G]out a
[F]plan of yours,
a [Esus]blackbird [E]sings on [Am]Blue[G]bird[C]hill
[D]thanks for the calling of the [Bb]wild [D#]
[Cm]wise [Bb]men's [D#]child [F]

[Middle Part with bagpipes etc.]

Chorus:
[F]Near a [Gm]tree by a [F]river is a [Bb]hole in the [C]ground,
where an [Gm]old man of [F]?arran? goes a[D#]round and a[Bb]round
And his [Gm]mind is a [F]beacon in the [Bb]veil of the [C]night,
for a [Gm]strange kind of [F]fashion there's a [D#]wrong and a [Bb]right
But he'll [Cm]never [Bb]ever [D#]fight...
[F]Near a [Gm]tree by a [F]river is a [Bb]hole in the [C]ground,
where an [Gm]old man of [F]?arran? goes a[D#]round and a[Bb]round
And his [Gm]mind is a [F]beacon in the [Bb]veil of the [C]night,
for a [Gm]strange kind of [F]fashion there's a [D#]wrong and a [Bb]right
But he'll [Cm]never [Bb]ever [D#]fight [F]over [Cm]you [Bb] [D#]
[F]No he'll [Cm]never [Bb]ever [D#]fight [F]over [Gm]you.

Incredible use of key changes all the time.

Most of those factors you list are usually matters of coincidence, while advanced key changes tend to be result of a careful intellectual process during songwriting. Thus, I would definitely see key changes as a higher level of complexity and musical skill than dynamics etc.

Polyrhythmics may be interesting though, but then mainly if used in an intellectual way, which was often the case with progressive rock. If rhythm is supposed to be complex and musically skilled, then it has to be so complicated it isn't possible to dance to it anymore.

Trouble is that there is nothing there, and then, nothing to look deeper into.

And as someone who has composed & performed music that has included complex polyrhythms, I must point out that it's infinitely harder to make complex polyrhthms that can be danced to...anyone who knows how to put dots-&-slashes on a page can make complex polyrhythms, but to make complex polyrhythms that the listener can feel is something completely different.

Hows that. Didn't even use any fancy words, but I think this works.

Bad melody: in Beck's "Static", the vocal melody line for the majority of the time simply follows the chord changes, and as the chords continue to change on the one at the beginning of each measure, it creates a quite bland and stiff vocal line.

Good Melody: Outkast’s “Ms Jackson” because it made me realise all this. That melodies need not be ‘super’ but can be supple, subtle things.

I try to stay out of the Geir H. thing because I find his views so alien to mine--he's wrong, or simple-minded, or deliberately obtuse, or something that I fail to find very interesting. At the same time, of course I like the Byrds and the Zombies, great melodies, but that's not all there is even in the realm of pop music, not to mention jazz, European "serious" music, etc. So Geir likes what he likes, fine, but I see absolutely no rationale for it, not that he needs to give one. Enjoy Crowded House and Genesis, I'll be listening to Stax and to Sly Stone and James Brown.

Plus Geir apparently hasn't thought about what he's saying too much--take the blues. Unhinge the blues from its rhythmic framework and the whole thing falls apart, see the absolutely essential Oxford book "Origins of the Popular Style." So it's not a question of melody vs. rhythm or the rest of it--I find it, sorry, incredibly simple-minded or obtuse or wrong-headed (perhaps it's deliberate) to think in this manner.

Geir has supplied a telling insight into the limitations of his own listening habits: He is incapable of seeing anything in music BEYOND THE SURFACE. A blues song to him is three chords, case closed. That a beat might have meaning (or completely transfigure a melody); that a simple three-chord song (say "Learning the Game" or "This Must Be the Place") might be capable of complex, even profound, effect -- all this is simply beyond Geir's capabilities. I don't know is Geir likes movies but if so, I'll bet he hates Jean Renoir, the Lumieres, Ozu, Ford -- artists who create depth from the simplest of images, the most modest of camera setups -- as surely as he hates Louis Armstrong, Bo Diddley, and Stax/Volt. (I can practically hear him complain about the lack of ideas and editing in Le Crime de Monsieur Lange, compared to Dune.) In short, Geir has no idea how music (at least 20th-century music) works.

"White Car in Germany" by the Associates has a jaw-dropping melody. The opening root-5th-octave synth bass line leaves you wondering whether the song is in a major or a minor key. It settles seemingly into a major key when the lead synth enters with the chorus(although the ever-present opening synth dribble (not the bass line) occasionally hits a flat 2nd, adding a lot of strange tension), but the opening vocal begins with a minor figure, coinciding with a similar shift in the backing track. The first time I heard this, I found it very odd and disorienting; it was hard to grasp the melody at first, but when I did I was floored. Another cool thing is the way that MacKenzie begins the third line of the verse on a major 2nd.

Some might say the melody's shortcoming is its resemblance to a line that should be played on a synth -- rhythmically, this might be a fair judgment, since the chorus is pretty much all quarter notes, and the verses aren't that much more complex -- but this only illuminates its strengths more clearly. MacKenzie's vocal is so amazing, too, in terms of delaying lines ever so slightly, shading the stately melodic line with vibrato, etc., that you hardly even notice the melodic line's rhythmic simplicity. In fact, I only noticed it just now when I was trying to come up with something to say about it.

(For other good melodies, see also -- well, pretty much anything by Rankine/MacKenzie ever.)

2. Bad melody

The melody of Richard Marx's "Right Here Waiting For You" is incredibly dull and lifeless. The same criticism about the melodic line's too-simple rhythm could be leveled here; the difference is, Marx actually sounds like a synth -- scratch that, a $40 Radio Shack Casio if it had a "creamy-voiced tool" setting. He just goes from one note to the note closest to it on the scale -- no leaps to create interest/imply striving/falling/whatever. The first "I will be right here waiting for you" actually ends on a 5th after climbing stepwise down the scale! It's the limpest thing ever.

Not Level 42. Dunno too much about Kajagoogoo, but I have the impression they got more musically complex after Limahl went solo.

Meet the 80s....

Good melody - "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down"
so perfect that any change kills it for me (see
Joan Baez). Still, the arrangement and performance
are vital icing on the cake; any rendition by
pro-tooling sessionsists would sound awful.

Bad melody - 75% of all Jim Morrison vocal melodies. The
Doors still kick ass, of course, but for different
reasons.

Re: "Meet the 80s..." true, but it _was_ the decade of Firehose,
Talking Heads, and _Skylarking_, all of which had organic
production. It was a tough decade, though, and a lot of
great songwriters produced sonically shitty product.

awaiting return of mark s.....

Revive! Ain't nothing like the good old days...

I don't see the point in clubs for indie fans at all. At least clubs where you are supposed to dance. Indie fans don't dance.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 10 December 2008 14:18 (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he meant 'can't' - these language barriers...

Indie fans don't dance, they just pull up their pants and do the rockaway

No, it is just yet another evidence that (melodic) pop will always remain better than rock.
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 5 April 2003 19:41 (eighteen years ago)

Correct, but English melodies are about a hundred times inferior to the Arabesk pop of müslüm gürses. Listen to Tanri istemezse and you will realise that the entire corpus of white pop music is not nearly melodic enough. and that is just one song. Key changes mask a lack of talent.

12 tones are too mathematically limited. To have absolute melodic supremacy you need complete resolution, and 12 tones do not fully resolve.