rolling "dave zirin sons a sports writer/figure and my commie ass self-righteously otms him"

tbh simmons is a pretty easy target and his recent criticisms of jemele hill and paul shirley were much more fruitful, but dude functions as a great ombudsman for the sportswriting world imo and it's a niche that needs more prominence

u also gotta separate a comment in a chat from an entire column.

the more i read of this guy he just seems like kind of a drag--like does he ever write about liking something?

deadspin eviscerated simmons for his comparison too but i think he makes a valid point or two

i'm a pretty big simmons stan, but that was a dumb comparison - tiger will be fine a few months after the first Open he returns to. But it is just a tossed off chat comment, and probably not worthy of too much self-righteous recrimation.

at the very least it's true that tiger's first tourney back is gonna be one of the most anticipated & frenzied sporting events of our lifetime

yeah tossed-off chat comment is really the story here--it's a complicated idea and maybe he could actually back it up in expanded form. but it's like who cares that chat was three hours long and he answered dozens of messages.

the more i read of this guy he just seems like kind of a drag--like does he ever write about liking something?

― call all destroyer, Monday, March 1, 2010 11:45 PM (13 minutes ago)

ha well this is my fault for posting all of his downer zingy articles here

the more i read of this guy he just seems like kind of a drag--like does he ever write about liking something?

― call all destroyer, Monday, March 1, 2010 11:45 PM (13 minutes ago)

this is how i feel about GREATEST AMERICAN SPORTSWRITER charles pierce

the first time I read that thread I read it as "self-righteously rims him"

lol nah kev i flip through his archives now and again too...just read one where he argues that sports need to accept that gender is a social construction (w/r/t that track athlete from south africa who got scrutinized and gender tested)--an idea which is uh complicated to say the least.

i was SHOCKED to find out that the best pierce can do nowadays is a little blog on boston.com that i've never seen in my life (nb i read boston.com every day). he is an awful these days.

btw does somebody think he is the g.a.s.?

zirin is great, a thousand times better than bill simmons, fuck the h8rs

also have NO CLUE what any of this has to do with mystic river!?

we really should have an i love sports board, fwiw. this guy is the best

― jaded scorer (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 2 March 2010 03:07 (10 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

America already has a ILBB, ILH and ILNFL? Although I'd be in favour of killing these for a more general ILS

also have NO CLUE what any of this has to do with mystic river!?

I don't know anything else about Zirin, but the leaps here are nutty.

dunno if thats really a 'lefty' thing? isnt that a pretty common fallacy?

"Tiger's comeback is going to be the most fascinating running sports story of my lifetime. I really believe that. We only get a handful of truly transcendent athletes per lifetime, he's one of them, and yet, none of them have ever been tested this way. The only thing that comes close: When Ali returned from 4 years of boxing exile for refusing to serve in Vietnam."

dont think it takes a huge leap to read that and go o_O

like u said, "One can view Ali's actions as greater, more momentous, while simultaneously believing that Woods's return (from more trivial matters) will be more difficult." orrr one can believe that a comparison btw the two events is offensive on its very face

Yeah, it's a pretty common fallacy that you see at NRO/etc. every day, but when it comes from lefty sources it annoys me more.

The leap there is that Zirin takes that statement and runs for a few hundred words on how Simmons doesn't think that Ali's exile and comeback were that big a deal, Tiger is a greater issue, etc.. Which is crap. Simmons never writes or says anything to that effect. ie "Yes, for Simmons, Ali's efforts to resist the military draft are dwarfed in importance by Tiger's efforts to resist nookie." - that simply isn't supportable with Simmons's own words. The unnecessary insults are just icing on the retarded rhetorical cake.

like u said, "One can view Ali's actions as greater, more momentous, while simultaneously believing that Woods's return (from more trivial matters) will be more difficult." orrr one can believe that a comparison btw the two events is offensive on its very face

one is the return from a principled religious stand and one is a return from a manufactured controversy?

"Yes, for Simmons, Ali's efforts to resist the military draft are dwarfed in importance by Tiger's efforts to resist nookie." - that simply isn't supportable with Simmons's own words.

i kind of think it is! he says the only thing that "comes close" to tigers comeback--i.e. the runner-up to tigers troubles--is ali coming back from being a religious objector

People (like Zirin) are conflating the reason for the hurdle with the height of the hurdle; Simmon's doesn't equate the backstories, only the size of the challenge ahead.

yeah and hes wrong to do so, and hes wrong on the merits

As long as you understand your talking apples v oranges, than okay.

i know its apples vs. oranges. does simmons?

America already has a ILBB, ILH and ILNFL? Although I'd be in favour of killing these for a more general ILS

uh no, only one sport matters.

Yes, he pretty clearly recognizes the difference in the situations. That's why he only compares the challenge of coming back.

Saying a comparison is offensive on it's face is pretty dumb, IMO. Either you can make the argument or you can't, and Simmons does so by restricting it to the 'height of the hurdle.' The criticisms Zirin can come up with are either generic ad hominem or have nothing to do with Simmons's words.

must feel good to blow up the internet w/a single chat paragraph

Yes, he pretty clearly recognizes the difference in the situations. That's why he only compares the challenge of coming back.

Saying a comparison is offensive on it's face is pretty dumb, IMO. Either you can make the argument or you can't, and Simmons does so by restricting it to the 'height of the hurdle.' The criticisms Zirin can come up with are either generic ad hominem or have nothing to do with Simmons's words.

i think its ridiculous to pretend that you can "only compare the challenge of coming back"! the conditions of these athletes comebacks--i.e. the things that create the "challenge"--are dictated by the reasons for their departures.

why is it dumb to say a comparison is offensive on its face? we do this all the time--if someone says, "health-care reform is like naziism," a lot of people arent going to say, "well, because he restricted it to the fact that the nazis reformed german laws, and health-care reform reforms american laws, its inoffensive." its offensive on its face because it trivializes the historical importance of naziism!

irrc the thrust is tigers return is a lol hueg sports deal - omg biggest deal ever, hyperbole, sure - however, the point stands, crazy shitstorm

i mean this is one of those things--we all make stupid, borderline offensive comparisons. and if simmons had been like "yeah thats not accurate" when he got called out on it, i dont think anyone would have cared. but not only did he dig in his heels when his commenters cried BS, he accused them of being misinformed about 'ali history' or whatever

"Tiger's comeback is going to be the most fascinating running sports story of my lifetime. I really believe that. We only get a handful of truly transcendent athletes per lifetime, he's one of them, and yet, none of them have ever been tested this way. The only thing that comes close: When Ali returned from 4 years of boxing exile for refusing to serve in Vietnam."

^^ i mean there are a number of ways to read this, but i read it as. "this is a huge sports story. no other athletes of tigers stature have been tested this way. the only athlete who comes close to having been tested this way is ali when he returned to boxing"

theres so much more media now - by weight his calculation is prob accurate

read zirins article for the counterargument

i mean how many death threats is tiger getting u know?

i dont really want to do that

was tiger arrested? was his passport revoked? did the fbi tap tigers phone?

Saying no act/event can be compared to the Nazis/Holocaust because doing so insults the memory and importance is pretty dumb too.

The conditions of their downfall play into the difficulty of the comeback, but nothing about that means you're comparing the causes or importance of those events. Nowhere does Simmons suggest that fucking porn stars and being a conscientous objector are equivalent acts. Only that Tiger faces the greatest difficulty in rebuilding his career since Ali.

lots of people get death threats, its not imo that telling of a stat

Saying no act/event can be compared to the Nazis/Holocaust because doing so insults the memory and importance is pretty dumb too.

whoa there buddy where did i say that? there are a lot of things that make for good comparison to naziism; health-care reform is not one of them. there are a lot of things that are good comparisons to alis stand and subsequent comeback; tiger woods is not one of them

The conditions of their downfall play into the difficulty of the comeback, but nothing about that means you're comparing the causes or importance of those events. Nowhere does Simmons suggest that fucking porn stars and being a conscientous objector are equivalent acts. Only that Tiger faces the greatest difficulty in rebuilding his career since Ali.

you are implicitly comparing the two acts if you are comparing their outcomes!

arent u supposed to be on your way to nepal

they have the internet there

death threats are not an officially recognized 'stat' anyway

this is great and all, but i just want to say:

America already has a ILBB, ILH and ILNFL? Although I'd be in favour of killing these for a more general ILS

― 80085 (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, March 2, 2010 9:07 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

NEVER

yah srsly plz no bb in mah h&nfl

btw the interesting angle of the comparison that neither simmons or zirin explored is what it means for society that ali was taking a principled religious stand and tiger is at the center of a media-created shitstorm abuot who he has sex with.

because in terms of difficulty of comeback, simmons might be right. i don't know, i wasn't there for ali.

imo the point no one is considering is: tiger is a nerd who fucks skanky chicks and plays a boring sport so who cares

i mean at least ali was cool

yoooooooo

"I am again left to marvel how somebody can rise to a fairly prominent media position with no discernible insight or talent, save for an apparent ability to mix up a vast bowl of word salad very quickly." - Olbermann, today

sportsguy33 KO, please know the feeling is mutual. You're my worst case scenario for my career in 12 yrs: a pious, unlikable blowhard who lives alone.

HOO!

d-d-d-daaaaaaaamn

a-rod was a distraction for the first month of the season when he was hitting .220

this is not even true btw. yanks had a 10 game win streak w/in a wk of him coming back

it might distract the sport some but i agree the golf reporters/broadcasters are gonna treat him v. softly

when they 1st announced he was making that "statement" @ pga hq i heard it referred to abt 4 times in promos as his 1st public statement since his 1-car accident, no elaboration of any cheating, etc

^during golf coverage i mean

And Simmons is an easy target, the sports world Chuck Klosterman, but it's pretty hard to argue his love of boxing or Ali in particular.

― FIST FIGHT! FIST FIGHT! FIST FIGHT IN THE PARKING LOT! (milo z), Tuesday, March 2, 2010 3:20 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark

Simmons doesn't know shit about boxing. He knows basketball, some football and baseball (the Red Sox, mostly).

With boxing he's a dilettante and should really just shut the fuck up most of the time.

Case in point, his ridiculous "last great fight" article re: Mayweather-De La Hoya.

Putting aside the social/turmoil issue, from a physical standpoint Ali was still in his boxing prime (28) and hadn't taken the physical punishment of boxing for over three years. Contrast to Tiger being on the way out of his golfing prime and coming back from a recent injury.

― FIST FIGHT! FIST FIGHT! FIST FIGHT IN THE PARKING LOT! (milo z)

Ali hadn't sparred in years, had gotten fat, lost a dramatic amount of his speed. And he was going to have to go 15 rounds with Joe fucking Frazier.

Tiger has a sore knee. Give me a fucking break.

yo I know I'm late to the party but what makes me maddest about all this is Simmons reaching for the tenuous Ali connection when there is an infinitely more reasonable comparison available in the form of 2003 Kobe Bryant

xp - except Ali didn't fight Frazier right away.

otm http://www.thenation.com/blog/164638/nba-players-welcome-99-percent

^ absolutely fucking OTM.

i was otm on this thread

mystic river was a horrible movie max

it's funny that charlie pierce now writes for bill simmons' website

that's a good piece by zirin. it's shameful that public sentiment isn't with the players.

i think people already think the players are spoiled babies and they dont really know who the owners are is the dynamic at work here

seems like the owners successfully convinced everyone that the league is not profitable while there was absolutely no way to do that with the nfl.

why is it that "the public" gets all up in arms about athletes getting paid but not about like movie stars? is it that hollywood is seen as more of a business than ml sports? or is it about the fact that most americans played sports as kids?

its because of racism

lol, duh, cant believe i forgot about america

i bet most people don't even really know how much movie stars make beyond "a lot"! whereas if you follow a team closely there's a good chance you know the salaries of most of the ppl on that team.

also racism

is it about the fact that most americans played sports as kids?

Have you ever heard a sportstalk radio caller wail "I'd play for free!" NO ONE WOULD WATCH YOU.

funny enough, the contract numbers for upper echelon sports stars are probably the closest to a purely honest market outcome in compensation you could find among rich people

true!

im all for the players getting all the money, theyre the ones who play the basketball

what ceo would settle for a few dozen million over 5 or so years? peanuts?

what owner would settle for any return that depended on his youth and physical health? ridiculous

good piece -- glad to see that brendan fraser is getting work still

http://www.thenation.com/blog/168311/why-we-should-all-root-miami-heat#

http://theclassical.org/theclog/dissenting-with-the-dissenter-a-reply-to-dave-zirin-on-the-nba-finals

zirin's an idiot

“Rooting for” is not “voting for,”

It's not?! But Zirin expressly said that it was!

Perkins' misapprehension of Zirin's piece strikes me as willful (and embarrassing).

from the comments:

I find it odd that Zirin left out the equally despicable ownership of the Heat. The American Airlines Arena the Heat play in is owned by Miami County. The Heat pay zero rent to use the arena and several politicians have publicly lambasted the deal that created this illogical arrangement. Basically, Heat majority owner Micky Arison used his dough to influence decision makers and push the deal through at the expense of the taxyers who funded the arena's construction.

OK, that's definitely an important point, and Zirin (and Perkins) should have made it.

ha curmudgeon just posted what i was gonna post

When Miami Heat owner Micky Arison struck a deal with Miami-Dade County to build the $213 million American Airlines Arena in 1997, he was supposed to return 40 percent of all profits beyond $14 million to the county. It was deemed a fair exchange for the $38 million worth of land and the $6.4 million annual subsidy (through 2027) he received for the new stadium.
But according to the Miami New Times, Arison has yet to return a single penny to the county – even after the arrival of LeBron James and Chris Bosh propelled the Heat to the NBA finals and the arena to a record $60 million in revenue last year.
That’s because Arison reported expenses of $47.8 million at the arena, $12 million of which came from “depreciation and amortization.” Even though revenues rose $15 million in 2011, team profits still couldn’t surpass the $14 million threshold.
The New Times speculates that Arison is using accounting tricks to ensure that profits don’t exceed $14 million, and he never has to share any of his winnings with the taxpayers that built his arena. [Miami New Times]

While Bennett said all the right things about keeping the Sonics in Seattle, a team executive dinner on September 9, 2006, tells you all you need to know about the man and his motives. On that fine evening, the Sonics management, all held over from the previous ownership regime, all Pacific Northwesters, gathered in Oklahoma to meet the new boss. Bennett made sure they were sent to a top restaurant, and picked up the bill. As the Seattle execs sat down, four plates of a deep fried appetizer were put on the table. After filling their mouths with the crispy goodness, one asked the waitress what this curious dish with a nutty flavor actually was. It was lamb testicles. Bennett laughed at their discomfort and the message was clear: the Sonics could eat his balls. (See Sonicsgate.com for a full accounting of this theft.)

didnt know mr. t was a minority owner of the thunder

Wow.

Does Zirin not know who Aubrey McClendon is? Probably no CEO has gotten more bad press the last few months and he doesn't mention any of it. Or the fact that he funded the Swift Boat ads. etc etc.

The American Airlines Arena the Heat play in is owned by Miami County. The Heat pay zero rent to use the arena and several politicians have publicly lambasted the deal that created this illogical arrangement. Basically, Heat majority owner Micky Arison used his dough to influence decision makers and push the deal through at the expense of the taxyers who funded the arena's construction.

― curmudgeon, Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

i have no idea if mickey arison is a good/bad person, but this is how every single stadium in america comes to fruition. pretty unremarkable, especially compared to bennett/mclendon.

i don't really think that people should choose their rooting interests based on the politics or actions of a team's owner because almost all of them are shitty rich bastards. but the OKC owner are a special type of shitty rich bastard, so it adds a silver lining to any misfortune that the team should experience.

Yes, although Wiki says there are some who hold Arison, the Carnival cruise line owner, and one of the wealthiest men in the world, responsible for that cruise ship that crashed in Italy killing 32 people.