Rolling Music Writers' Thread

whiney, do you consider yourself a "failed musician" because you didn't make a living doing it? because i mean...

(sorry xposts) But are you a music writer because you're a failed musician? In an ideal world, would you have preferred to be a musician?

I ask as someone who's done both, neither to any great extent, but I was always more covetous of a career as a writer.

xp Also, I get the idea most music writers do grow increasingly bitter about music! I wouldn't say it's inevitable, but it's definitely more common than not. It's hard not to, to some extent. Like I said in my essay, I still hear a couple hundred records I like enough to hang onto every year. But I'm kind of bitter about music anyway! From my observation of the Pazz & Jop electorate at the Voice, I'd say the real hump writers have trouble getting over, for some reason, comes in their early 30s. That's when lots of music crits seem to pack it in. (I know, for me, that's when I thought most everything I heard sucked. Of course, in my case, my early 30s coincided with the early '90s, when most everything did suck. But that wasn't my fault.)

Also, I've said it before, on other threads, but if anything, I'm way more a frustrated DJ (in my head) than a frustrated musician. (But then again, I don't need to be a musician, since I married one.)

I'm way more a frustrated DJ (in my head) than a frustrated musician

haha yeah, this rings way more true

"If you were in the slightest bit interesting to me, you’d probably be in a band. And if you were any good at playing music you probably wouldn’t be writing about it. "

I take it Whiney's not really a fan of Saint Etienne, Yo La Tengo, etc.?

whiney, do you consider yourself a "failed musician" because you didn't make a living doing it? because i mean...

That is exactly what I mean.

But are you a music writer because you're a failed musician?

I was a struggling music writer and a struggling musician for many, many years and I just slowly leaned more and more into the one that kept giving me steady paychecks.

In an ideal world, would you have preferred to be a musician?

Absolutely.

Not to sound sorry for myself! I basically wanted to live in a pipe dream and I just traded down for a more realistic pipe dream!

Everyone I know, in good bands and mediocre, loses money playing in bands. Often quite a lof of money.

yeah i don't know if making money is a good gauge of whether or not you are a successful musician. a working musician, i guess, would be the better term. and, man, that is a hard hustle just like any other hustle.

i'd seriously love to get all hippy-dippy about it, but making money is a good gauge of how you pay your rent, as the last time I checked my landlord does not accept "indie cred" and "cool travel experiences" as payment

i'm sure if you wanted to, you could have made a similar living as a working musician but it would probably would have involved teaching, playing music you might not be that into and that certainly doesn't involve indie cred, etc.

not criticizing, everyone's ideas of success are different, etc.

When was the last time you checked?

xp

right, just saying you aren't a FAILURE if you don't make money at it.

x-post

i mean yeah, the word FAILURE is a little hyprbolicm but on the most basic level, i think most people go into music with the dream of it being their life's work and then fail to realize it

way to project

I got drunk a few nights ago and sang a song into the recording thing on my cell phone before I fell asleep

xpost
uh, i straight up admitted it up thread, but nice "zing"

when I heard it later I realized that I am a musician

Sorry, better things to do than read entire thread! xp

show all messages (757 of them)

Know who you're writing for ?...and who exactly is that ?...other writers seems to be who, as they are the only ones reading about music ?...yeah or nah ?

The rest of us just listen to it, having been quietly put off reading about it by tastemaker journo types of the past amping shit up or tearing shit down, which when you check out the actual music, you think...WTF ? that was meh or conversely, that was ace.

I tend to just hear the music on a tune by tune basis. No albums, no artists, no genres. I guess i'm not a fan of them and i'm defintely not a writer.

Very little music or artists would inspire me to want to write about them. So yeah...dance about architecture while the band plays on and on and on...

"Know who you're writing for ?...and who exactly is that ?...other writers seems to be who, as they are the only ones reading about music ?...yeah or nah ?"

nah.

I like -- or should I say I relate to -- parts of both Ed Ward's and Richard Meltzer's blurbs in that feature -- they're mining similar territory, emotionally speaking -- but they both lose me by turning their kvetching entirely outward, blaming their bitterness on the genre of music writing itself, refusing to hold themselves at least somewhat culpable for their own inability/failure/whatever to carry on. I feel their mood in those pieces 100% right now, but they both kind of collapse under the weight of their own bullshit, Meltzer with his Burger King reference, Ward saying "If you have writing talent, for heaven’s sakes, use it for something worthwhile." (Well, what the fuck do you consider "worthwhile"? You want to write articles about feeding the hungry? Go for it!) (Meltzer, as I've said elsewhere on many occasions, is such a monumental figure to me, he can say anything he likes in print -- especially about music or writing -- and I'll always dig it. But I still think he's evading something here.) When I say I loathe the very idea of music writing, which I do right now -- and no, I'm not pretending to place myself in the esteemed company of Meltzer, Ward, et al -- what I'm really saying is, I loathe parts of myself. I loathe the world too, sometimes, but that's such a pat answer in a way.

If you don't mind my asking, why do you "loathe the very idea of music writing," at least "right now"? Genuinely curious.

I loathe the act of doing it and rarely enjoying the results of it, I loathe the fact of speaking into a void, most of all I loathe the fact that I can't seem to shed it as an interest and a genuine passion despite having made a real effort to drop it. It's fucking weird, it really is in my bloodstream -- a transfusion is maybe the best way to go, I figure. (I dunno if I've answered the question. I'm bitter as fuck about wasting years of effort for naught, and not exercising other muscles, so to speak, to make adjusting to the real world a little easier.)

I loathe the fact that I will surely regret just having posted both of those when I wake up tomorrow!

I'm just surprised, I guess! At the same time, though, I've been wanting to read less rock criticism for the past three years and haven't stopped. \(O_o)/

I barely even really listen to music anymore -- always half paying attention to everything.

Seemed like back in the day y'all wrote for genre specific print magazines and the fans. Now, there is a dearth of magazines and fans have equal access to the music as much as the writers, so can form their own opinions.

It's like you're on a hiding to nothing in trying to build up a fanbase of readership who admire your style and respect your opinion.

Do y'all writers know who you're writing for anymore or is it pure folly and you're just doing it for yourselves because you must ?

It parallels musicians who make music that continues a tradition knowing most of the music has been done before and usually so much better that theres nothing original about what they try to do anymore.

one day you come to the realization that it's all been for naught ?

I think xhuxk is dead on re there being a hump to get over in your early 30s. That is when I was very close to packing it in, and I probably would have if I hadn't started writing a column then.

xhuxk said something similar to me in private email some years back in my own early thirties -- pretty perceptive, I realized!

fans have equal access to the music as much as the writers

you mean that 800 lb gorilla on the couch over there? just ignore him

Ian MacKaye once said that his goal with any band was to play one show. I think that's a pretty good standard of success. Lord Scotch once said real hip-hoppers have a day job. I don't agree with that notion of realness, but I sympathize. The idea that the market is the only measure of your worth, or even of actual demand, is absurd.

the vast majority of people making metal have other jobs. probably same goes for folk musicians, jazz musicians, bluegrass musicians, punk musicians, and experimental horse music makers.

experimental horse music O_O

*whinny* *snare snare* *guitar feedback*

I just got the following email blast from one of my editors, which he said was sent to him by his boss:

"is there any way to get word out to freelancers that nobody gives a shit about record-company stuff? it's way boring stuff that nobody but music snobs care about. while we're at it, can we also let writers know that readers don't care what pitchfork or anybody else has to say about a band? if they wanted to know, they'd read them. we're supposed to be authoritative critics with our own opinions. leave those references to other publications out of stories."

... way boring etc ...

Inspirational, that.

That's pretty mean-spirited calling someone a failed musician (or a failed anything). The guy put out records and toured, after all. Its all about face wants to instigate some existential crises, huh.

Do not mistake this for a conversation. We deliver our opinions from a very high rock on which none are allowed to coexist.

Its all about face wants to instigate some existential crises, huh.

As far as I can tell he only really came to ILX to bait [dubstep journo turned producer] Martin Clark so I think we can just assume he has 'issues'

Know who you're writing for ?...and who exactly is that ?...other writers seems to be who, as they are the only ones reading about music ?...yeah or nah ?

The rest of us just listen to it, having been quietly put off reading about it by tastemaker journo types of the past amping shit up or tearing shit down, which when you check out the actual music, you think...WTF ? that was meh or conversely, that was ace.

I tend to just hear the music on a tune by tune basis. No albums, no artists, no genres. I guess i'm not a fan of them and i'm defintely not a writer.

You can say that last bit again.

You say the rest of us as if we're all complicit and in agreement but you only have to look at stats for blogs, big ISPs like MSN, music websites as well as the print press to see that your argument is false. What you actually mean is, I'm a bit dim witted, therefore I have no need to discuss music other than on a very superficial, what-does-it-sound-like level - which there's nothing wrong with per se - your kind of music consumer has always existed and will always be in the majority.

The question really seems to be: if this is your attitude towards discussing music, what are you doing hanging round on a music message board of this nature?

Back once again with the shrill behaviour indeed.

what are you doing hanging round on a music message board of this nature?

sifting.

so Doran, have you got stats on how many people have been put off music journos cos they wrote some fluff/hate piece only for their readers to realize how wrong they got it ?

BTW, you written about anything worth checking out lately ? A tune, an album, an artist, a blog ? anybody else want to pimp their shit..yeah, nah ?

seriously...humour me, inspire me, enlighten me, convert me, make me believe in you !!!

And have any of y'all been to Blackdown's arts council funded folly and want to write a review ? I see uncarved did and well hmmm...

I don't use this place to spam (as much as it is sometimes a temptation), just to discuss what's coming out.

seriously...humour me, inspire me, enlighten me, convert me, make me believe in you !!!

I'm not sure if I can but I do know I'm now going to go and listen to some Patti Jo and some Curtis Mayfield.

This is slightly off-topic and probably doesn't need to be said, but does it strike anyone else as a little sad, how much we now link playing and writing music with wanting to make a living or get attention from doing it? I understand it -- we're surrounded by enough recorded artifacts that we're losing the "need" for people to play -- but for a whole lot of human history it has been pretty normal for people to play music just because it's fun, and something to do, and they love it, and maybe now and then their friends or kids or grandkids will want to hear a tune.

Which is rather like a lot of reasons people write, or talk about things they're interested in, or whatever. Maybe some people have plans they're disappointed never panned out, but I work from the assumption that a lot of people just really like music, and they'll play it, talk about it, write about it, make films about it, whatever -- maybe they'll find a role that pays them to do one of these things, maybe not. If not, they'll do some other job and talk about music on a blog, or with their friends, or play guitar in the back room, or enjoy being involved with music some other way.

Sorry if this is a total hippie post, but that strikes me as a nicer way of thinking about it.

I think that drive was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger in the 70s and 80s and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_qhnWByA4

not everyone is trying to be famous pitchfork stars like bear in heaven and brent dicrescenzo, nabisco. I think most people with recording and blogging software are doing funny YouTube mashups and diary entries for their friends

for a whole lot of human history it has been pretty normal for people to play music just because it's fun, and something to do, and they love it, and maybe now and then their friends or kids or grandkids will want to hear a tune.

historians tell us that the advent of recording in the early 20th century killed off a lot (not all) of amateur music-making: gathering around the family piano, local marching bands, barbershop quartets etc. interesting that the internet's leveling effect on the record business might bring it all back home.

whiney, isn't that what I just now said??

sorry, maybe the first paragraph was misleading -- I'm saying it seems disappointing how often we assume the point is to accomplish something, or joke about how people aren't going to get anywhere with what they're doing, instead of considering that someone home-recording dubstep might be like someone's grandfather playing a little guitar on the porch (i.e., just part of a lifelong relationship with music)

Well, I mean, when I write x intended for an audience, isn't it...normal to assume we're "accomplishing" something? Not being flippant, just confused by your terms, nabisco.