White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

"I say what I want to say, and other people play politics... I honestly don't remember saying that, but I don't even listen to my records."

you and everyone else, r.a.

calling Ice-T whitey is just going too far

i find the "we're trying to get people to really think about the word" justification to be really lame - there isn't exactly a shortage of thoughts and information on racial epithets and their history out there, and i definitely don't think that body of work was crying out for cocorosie's contribution to it

Wiki:

In 1979, singer Elvis Costello used nigger in "Oliver's Army", a state-of-the-world-today song inspired by adolescent British Army soldiers on occupation duty in Northern Ireland. Later, the producers of the British talent show Stars in Their Eyes forced a contestant to censor the second-verse lyrics line, ". . . all it takes is one itchy trigger — One more widow, one less white nigger" to the euphemistic ". . . one less white figure".

she was basically defending it as an reclamation of the word, saying that by using it to stand in for those that stand "outside of society" it becomes a more inclusive and positive appropriation of the word

That's kind of like giving yourself a nickname and then insisting that other people start referring to you that way. It never works. The word's meaning is far too large and engrained for one person to write a song about with the hopes of changing the entire world's perception of the word.

I mean, wtf Perry

why not just call the song "Lemme Bone This Black Girl For A Minute" and call it a day

xp: haha uh, actually I very successfully gave myself a nickname, both in college and on the Internet, so I disagree with your analogy

lol

xp And if you're going to talk, say, the Gun Club, seems to me you could go way beyond the actual use of the N-word, and cite as their roots things like Warren Smith's often-covered (by Stray Cats, Alice Cooper, John Prine, etc.) and definitely racially questionable 1957 rockabilly classic "Ubangi Stomp." Every one of those bands knew what they were covering.

then dude got in trouble later for using the word in reference to james brown and ray charles which maybe kind of retroactively made his use of it in the song less defensible

ha yeah I was about to say.

for some reason Lennon's/Ono's and Newman's - and barring the episode referenced above - Costello's usage doesn't reek of stupidity like the others. which is sad, because "One in a Million' is a great fucking song.

Perry pretty much set the standard for CocoRosie since he
2. Covered Sly's "Don't Call Me N---, Whitey" live

I think he recorded it as a duet w/ Ice-T as well?

― heywood jabulani (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 15:54 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

During the first Lollapalooza tour, Jane's Addiction brings out Ice-T to perform a rendition of Sly & the Family Stone's "Don't Call Me Nigger, Whitey (Don't Call Me Whitey, Nigger)". Perry Farrell sings the white part, Ice-T sings the Black part. Black quartet Living Colour comes onstage afterward and bandleader Vernon Reid announces "I'll never be anyone's nigger for entertainment..."

― and what, Tuesday, 25 December 2007 20:53 (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The 'Black Girlfriend' lyrics read a little like a re-write of 'I Wanna Be Black' by Lou Reed (a song that is both funny, and ironic, and REALLY horrible all at the same time - well done Lou)

I can think of at least 2 more punk songs that use it in a sort of "in character" thing with the police - neither were exactly noted outside of obscure punk circles though - The Badge Means You Suck by AK-47 and Pigs In Blue by the Disrupters.

It's the same kind of usage as Hate The Police which I think is sort-of acceptable although still wish they could've used other words to make their point.

2. Covered Sly's "Don't Call Me N---, Whitey" live

I think he recorded it as a duet w/ Ice-T as well?

Yeah I have a bootleg cd from a lollapalooza date. Perry Farrel says "dont call me nigger, whitey" and Ice-T says "Dont call me whitey, nigger."

damn xpost

it's depressing how ignorant ppl can be of history (musicians not ppl itt)

Max OTM

I thought the Elvis Costello mention referred to the incident when he (allegedly) (drunkenly) applied the "n" to Ray Charles/sorta disqualifies him, no?

looking forward to threads about artistic uses of homophobia & anti-semitism

that vernon reid quote is a classic

looking forward to threads about artistic uses of homophobia & anti-semitism

think there may be one or two already

Also, there was a music video of Jane's/Body Count performing it at the end of "The Gift".

I mean, from like 2:15 to 2:30, Perry seems downright ecstatic to say it. He says it more than than they ever did in the original.

I def get the point they were trying to make, but it's still rrrrreally cringey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07dCLYdsqJw

"Mr. Bob Goldthwait said the only reason we put these lyrics on the record was because it would cause controversy and we'd sell a million albums. Fuck him!"
I am pretty much always going to side with Bobcat over Axl.

"The word's meaning is far too large and engrained for one person to write a song about with the hopes of changing the entire world's perception of the word."
Axl using it has helped change my perception that people are entitled to use any words they like any way they like, and that feeling so entitled is the mark of an asshole.
As a society we should absolutely let assholes use it and call them out on what assholes they are.

for some reason Lennon's/Ono's and Newman's - and barring the episode referenced above - Costello's usage doesn't reek of stupidity like the others.

I can point you exactly at the reason; some thought went into what the word means and the respective songs were built around that. I mean, even dumb-ass Patti Smith's incoherency muddles halfway towards making a valid point in her song; Axl, Perry and CocoRosie are basically just flinging around words they know upset people without really thinking about or understanding why they upset people. (Obv Costello's subsequent behavior ruins his song.)

The The had a great failure along these lines on their Mind Bomb album in "The Violence of Truth", where the narrator of the song was SO straightforward and matter of fact that his n-bomb came across as an endorsement rather than an indictment, a la Conrad's Heart of Darkness (only without Conrad''s excuse of being a product of times where Africans were really considered sub-human).

Also, there was a music video of Jane's/Body Count performing it at the end of "The Gift".

― kkvgz, Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:05 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The Jane's Addiction video vanity project that was so insignificant as not to even make their wiki page, I guess.

WHERE ARE THE OBLIGATORY NIGGERS? HEY THERE FUCKFACE! HEY THERE FUCKFACE!

i can think of at least 20 better ways you could made that point, SexyDancer

xxxposts @ HI DERE: yep. whether they are intellectualizing it (Lennon, and uh, Smith lol), or writing in character (Newman), these instances seem very of the time, i.e., I can't see this happening much now and it actually *working* on any level other than pure spectacle.

which I guess gets to --Was this more acceptable in the 70s than the 00s? If so, why?

yeah, and that song supposedly cost the fall their motown deal, which is true is pretty solid example of why its the people who have had to deal w. descrimination that are a lot more sensitive to the way its language is used.

not more acceptable in the 70s, but more tolerated in the 70s.

apologies to sexyDancer for the hairtrigger thread ban; it's been revoked

if you would like to explain your point for those of us who don't know the reference, you can

which I guess gets to --Was this more acceptable in the 70s than the 00s? If so, why?

― proof-texting my way into state legislature (will), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 3:15 PM (28 seconds ago)

this is kindof an interesting point and i would kinda guess that it has something to do with rap music and hip hop culture in gen. making v explicit minorities attempts at appropriating discriminatory epthets (cf. queerness etc.)

xp to dan, like i said above, "where are the obligatory n-" was the opening line of a fall album that was apparently slated for a motown release but cost them their deal.

hex enduction hour

I feel like singing from the POV of a character (esp. an unreliable character) (like Randy Newman often did) was always very confusing to U.S. rock audiences, who were used to earnestness and authenticity, and never really caught on.

see also all the people who think of Steely Dan as being smooth bastards

^^^ yes, or the legion of people from my high school who earnestly endorsed the fascist freakout towards the end of The Wall

Springsteen sings POV a lot of the time, but most of the characters he adopts are, like, 99.1% genetically similar to Bruce anyway so no one notices. xxxp

As a society we should absolutely let assholes use it and call them out on what assholes they are.
That's the beauty of free speech. Say what you gotta say, but realize someone's gonna hold you accountable.

Patti probably doesn't realise that if the song didn't have that one word, i'd probably put it into every dj set i ever play. The FOOL.

I really love the Stones song "Sweet Black Angel" but I find the lyrical content a little bit unsettling.

I've probably told this story before but I was raised in part by a far-left guy who instilled in me, early on, an absolute horror of racist language. (This had its pluses and minuses, since he was also a guy who was pretty into beating women & children for perceived wrongs, so if he thought you'd said something you actually hadn't said, there wouldn't be any chance to clarify the matter.) What's more, the school I went to was a super-sensitive 70s Cali school where we talked about the evils of racism (and the merits of environmentalism) at least as much as we talked about math. (Practically everybody from my school sucks at math.) So OK, 11-year-old me hears Patti Smith doin "Because the Night" and thinks it's awesome so he writes to the Patti Smith fan club to say "your record kicks ass" and they send out the newsletter. Guess which song is in all caps on the front of the newsletter? Guess how able to parse any nuance at all I am, in light of all that Bad Word? Guess which 11 year old freaks completely out because he thinks his approval of "Because the Night" means he's one of these horrible white people who'd say that?

in fairness to 11-year-old you, your approval of "Because the Night" was actually tacit approval of that other song due to the magical transitive property known as "ppl taking approval for one thing and applying it to something you actually find super repellent"; this is why I try as hard as I can to avoid supporting artists who do/say shit I find violently offensive, regardless of how much I like other things they've done

I feel like most uses of this wind up falling into one of two camps:

(a) People who are trying to make an artistic point, and for some reason believe their (often stupid) point is so important that it justifies toying with something huge and important in other people's lives. (The most acceptable example of this I can think of is the Lennon/Ono, because the comparison is non-stupid and the point has some weight.)

(b) People who want to be antisocial. And to be honest I think there's often a smooth bleed over from "edgy" punk use of the word, to the kind of misanthropic metal/punk attitudes that flirt with Nazi/white-power shit, to some actual Nazi punk and metal. Sometimes the malice consists of not giving a shit about this stuff as a form of hip misanthropy or cynicism. (But it's not misanthropy; racially specific misanthropy is just known as "racism.")

^^ Interviews with musicians about their use of the word often seem to blur these two things in comically stupid ways.

I'm not sure I'll ever understand why a lot of white people are weird about whether or not they get to use this word. It strikes me as an incredibly easy word to not-use. Like, harder to use than otherwise.

I also kind of accept that its status was just different in the past -- e.g., the 70s, when it was still enough in common circulation that people might feel like they could redirect it. (I mean, as of the late 70s you could hear it on television, in certain circumstances.) So I guess personally it's less annoying to me in that frame.

in fairness to smith though, she has handled marginality and appropriation in more sensitive ways for eg. her cover of don't smoke in bed, her clumsiness with race shouldn't be confused with actual racism

One big piece of stupidity and blindness in both camps is just ... people who have the luxury of thinking about race/blackness/actual-black-people as some kind of totally abstract concept they can be artistic and provocative about

xpost -- between "Rock'n'Roll etc." and "Radio Ethiopia" I always feel like Smith is designed to mess with me in particular

haha!

(I mean not me in particular, but you know what I mean)

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

I'm a big fall fan but the "where are the obligatory etc" line always stuck in my craw

mark e smith does have some great lyrics on race though, like in "english scheme":

condescends to black men
very nice to them

the singsong way he delivers the line is both funny and totally nails a certain genteel racism which isn't just for britishers

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

her best album!

I felt like her first record had a lot of awkward race stuff on it too. I haven't listened to it in years, but that was my impression at the time.

should we talk about this frogs album

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racially_Yours

punkishippies is always on about this shit

We should probably get into how Douglas Pearce is misunderstood while we are at it

Can't be bothered to read thread. What did we decide about The Classical in the end?

I guess I'll give punkishippies that the distinction between 'artistic' use of a racial slur and 'actually racist' use is vague and worth questioning. I agree that GnR were being actually racist in "One in a Million".

xp i always thought the use of the word, in "the classical," modified as it is with the word "obligatory," wass supposed to point out how societies have this tendency to marginalize certain groups -- sort of a foucauldian thing. the target is not the out group, but society, for creating out groups.

however, i am reading now that he is targeting the bbc's tendency toward tokenism, putting a few black people in the crowds of televised performances. this is a less defensible use of the word in my view. the target is still the "bbc" but the black people in the crowd are also being singled out in a very disrespectful kind of way.

inconclusive.

30 albums and he never did it other than 20 seconds into his would-be breakout record. total provocateur move, still makes me a bit uncomfortable though

I mean, it's meant to, yeah yeah

definitely mars a song with otherwise amazing lyrics

ts: 1981 vs. 2016

recent events reminded me of this classic exchange upthread:

Slayer: two Latinos and a Jew (Kerry King). Granted, the other guy is about as Aryan as you can get and is obsessed with Nazi imagery, but what are you gonna do.

― Chicago to Philadelphia: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:38 AM

not be obsessed with nazi imagery

― max, Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:39 AM

lol