Gore Vidal - classic or dud?

I just read the second memoir--pretty bad, but it was funny to follow his feud with the NY Times. He keeps repeating an odd complaint that after "The City & the Pillar" they didn't review his next seven books in the daily New York Times. He even takes to task a critic who disputes this claim. But he doesn't mention that those books were reviewed in the Sunday New York Times Book Review, which is where most of the book reviewing is done. That's hair-splitting at a Bill O'Reilly level.

I have no recollection of expressing a desire to punch Gore Vidal in the stomach, but considering that as a public figure, what Vidal he's been tirelessly offering these days are iterations on "well, of <i>course</i>" -- as if none of our country's crimes could possibly surprise him much and how <i>boring</i> of you to feel otherwise, a rhetorical strategy whose main function isn't to make sense out of the events of the day but establish Vidal's superiority over them, a feeble ambition if ever there was -- it doesn't mean I didn't say it. (Oh half-assed ILx search function, you fail me, you always fail me.)

OK, I now have a dim memory of expressing the above riff on Vidal and his relationship to "well, of course" before, possibly (probably) on ILx, so that ups the chances of me actually saying something along the lines of "boy, it'd sure be fun to give YE OLDE DOODE a short sharp shock in the abdomen and watch him cringe in pain."

Actually, you DID say so a couple of years ago.

honestly i have never really got why i should particularly care about Gore Vidal. i mean, i think i may have read a few of his books back when i was a teenager and just read whatever i found lying around, but i never sensed that he was any more worthwhile than James Michener, Sidney Sheldon, Steven King, or John Grisham, for that matter.

Um, any one of his sentences soars in ways Michener, Sheldon, and King's don't. Finding his novels in the remaindered section in the company of Michener's is no reflection on their quality.

which is to say, there's plenty to dislike in the man (and the writer), but stylistically he's unimpeachable.

I agree the second memoir was disappointing but enjoyable just in terms of sheer bitichiness and gossip. OTOH Palimpset is his masterpiece, balancing the s.b. and g. w/the literary goods, really one of the most psychologically acute autobiographies I've read almost on a par with Nabokov's Speak Memory? no that's over-the-top but it is good. I find his historical ficiton tough sledding, finished Lincoln but got bored senseless by Burr. But I'm more interested in the past now than when I read those books, still doubt I'll ever re-read.

probably deserves classic status for his 60s TV appearances alone.

the queer VS the crypto-nazi

I also feel a combo of boredom and pity at anyone who could be surprised by Gangster America's crimes, so Vidal is ace with me.

(fite: Mike D's feelings of superiority over Vidal vs Vidal's over Yankee dumbasses)

Burr was good.

I was surprised to learn that my gay lefty lit-major friend hates him.

sure he's not a Clintonite?

I'm surprised Mark preferred Lincoln to Burr, which is LOL-funny for most of the way.

I didn't say I didn't say the gut-punch statement, it's just I don't remember it (which is unusual for me, I typically have a good recollection of every last inane thing I've written on ILx), and I can't find it, either. I probably did say it but when I first read J.D.'s post I was all, uh, oh great, another person on ILx mixing up the Michaels.

My feelings of superiority over Vidal vs Vidal's over Yanqui dumasses vs Morbs showin' off his misplaced intellectual vanity and mastery of received leftisms the way a Bonobo ape displays its ass: well, the first two categories have never been especially laffsome, so...

If you think "I don't like Vidal" is equivalent in all cases to "I feel superior to Vidal" then you mightaswell cut to the chase and just say "U R JUST JELOUS." We're on the internet so it's *totally* appropriate. Go on, you've only got a whole thread, say something outrageous.

Superiority? I mean, I'll never be stylist Vidal is, that's pretty much a given. URGH I hate my writing ICK PTUI: absurd analogies, winky-winky references, a lazy reliance on the demotic, much too much in the way of adverbs, little words that drop out because I can't be bothered to edit, *Week-end*-like pile-ups of clauses committed in the name of "poetic" hyperbolia, this very sentence being excellent/awful example. And don't waste your energy contradicting me, I won't hear of it, compliments make me want to tear the flesh off my bones.

Boy, it's a good thing that '90s email flirtation we had never turned into a date.

(I am not an intellectual, so can't be vain about it, but I do have the bill of lading for all my received leftisms.)

IIRC, it wasn't e-mail, it was decidedly one-sided phone conversations that I kind found vaguely frightening.

(See? Look at that! ADVERBS, the bane of the English language.)

I'm pretty sure we never talked on the phone. I saw the emails last year, though.

So this wasn't the bizarre love quadrangle like I've been telling everyone for years?

(Bizarre love quandrangle NOT being the same thing as a foursome, let's just get that straight.)

I think you have mistaken me for someone else? (I kinda fancy getting a fictional reputation, tho.)

I can only remember attempting non-face-to-face gayish conviviality with one guy in the WFMU universe. Man, this heart medicine really does annihilate memories, I oughta up the dosage.

A Gore Vidal thread seems such an apropriate place for hot ILX0r gossip.

The new nü-ILX gay thread!

There is no gossip! (but I think M.D. may deserve combat pay for having dated an insane ex-friend of mine)

This is fantastic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/7414438.stm

"Tome" is pretty good

seriously, everyone watch that vid.

"I've got to warn you about something; I am very popular"

cheeky bump

michael daddino otm up there. thing is, he's till very entertaining.

And his novels are hella underrated.

o_O

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0796207/

Adriana Asti ... Ennia

Justine Bateman ... Attia, Imperial Courtesan

Karen Black ... Agrippina
Barbara Bouchet ... Caesonia

Gerard Butler ... Prefect Cassius Chaerea

Benicio Del Toro ... Macro

Milla Jovovich ... Druscilla

Courtney Love ... Caligula

Helen Mirren ... Tiberia

Mia Moretti ... Priestes of Isis

Michael Okarma ... Greek Slave
Michelle Phillips ... Messalina
Glenn Shadix ... Claudius
Tasha Tilberg (as Tasha Tilberg)
Francesco Vezzoli ... Caligula
Gore Vidal ... Himself

I saw this at a museum (the Whitney?) about 3 years ago. Certainly never coming to a theater near you.

it's a 5-minute artwank, you know?

btw, Vidal outlives Updike, wins again!

In very good form on the Bill Maher show:

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Um:

I've only skimmed his essay on Fitzgerald in "United States" whilst I was shelving books. Always been bemused that he seems to be so much better received outside the U.S. than within. Maybe I'll check out the essays.

He gets off a few zingers here:

Last year he famously switched allegiance from Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama during the Democratic nomination process for president. Now, he reveals, he regrets his change of heart. How’s Obama doing? “Dreadfully. I was hopeful. He was the most intelligent person we’ve had in that position for a long time. But he’s inexperienced. He has a total inability to understand military matters. He’s acting as if Afghanistan is the magic talisman: solve that and you solve terrorism.” America should leave Afghanistan, he says. “We’ve failed in every other aspect of our effort of conquering the Middle East or whatever you want to call it.” The “War on Terror” was “made up”, Vidal says. “The whole thing was PR, just like ‘weapons of mass destruction’.
-------------
Another notable Obama mis-step has been on healthcare reform. “He f***ed it up. I don’t know how because the country wanted it. We’ll never see it happen.” As for his wider vision: “Maybe he doesn’t have one, not to imply he is a fraud. He loves quoting Lincoln and there’s a great Lincoln quote from a letter he wrote to one of his generals in the South after the Civil War. ‘I am President of the United States. I have full overall power and never forget it, because I will exercise it’. That’s what Obama needs — a bit of Lincoln’s chill.”

Vidal puts on a scornful, campy voice. “People ask [of he and Austen], ‘How did you live together so long?’ The only rule was no sex. They can’t believe that. That was when I realised I was dealing with a public too stupid by half. They can’t tell the difference between ‘The Sun rose in the East’ and ‘The Sun is made of yeast’.” Was sex important to Vidal? “It must have been yes.”

He is single now. “I’m not into partnerships,” he says dismissively. I don’t even know what it means.” He “couldn’t care less” about gay marriage. “Does anyone care what Americans think? They’re the worst-educated people in the First World. They don’t have any thoughts, they have emotional responses, which good advertisers know how to provoke.” You could have been the first gay president, I say. “No, I would have married and had nine children,” he replies quickly and seriously. “I don’t believe in these exclusive terms.”

This cuts to the chase, for me personally:

"Don’t ever make the mistake with people like me thinking we are looking for heroes. There aren’t any and if there were, they would be killed immediately. I’m never surprised by bad behaviour. I expect it.”

oh christ:

INTERVIEW OCTOBER 28, 2009
The American literary and cultural icon speaks out on the Polanski scandal, the Obama Presidency, the sexual exploits of Bill Clinton, and more.
by John Meroney
A Conversation With Gore Vidal
ARTICLE TOOLS
sponsored by:

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At age 83, Gore Vidal remains a sharp provocateur, as irascible and irreverent as ever.

Snapshots in History’s Glare, a new memoir by Vidal released this month, renews interest in this American literary and cultural icon—offering readers a pictorial look at his singular life, from his youth in the political and social circles of Washington, to his service in World War II, his expat years in Guatemala and Europe, his emergence as a major novelist, his decades writing scripts in Hollywood, his forays into politics, his infamous feud with William F. Buckley Jr., and his friendships with Eleanor Roosevelt, JFK, and Tennessee Williams, among others. The book concludes with photos of his future burial plot beside his longtime companion, Howard Auster, at D.C.’s Rock Creek Cemetery.

WEIGH IN:
DISCUSS THIS INTERVIEW
At The Atlantic's Politics Channel. Read Marc Ambinder's take, and post your own comments.
Eager for his thoughts on Obama’s presidency and a range of other topics, I caught up with Vidal twice this month at his home in Hollywood. (The first time, he sported a varsity-football-style jacket, bearing patches of the characters from The Simpsons, on which he once made a guest appearance.)

Our conversation ranged widely, covering everything from Ted Kennedy, to the Polanski scandal, to the sexual exploits of Bill Clinton, and the relative merits of Obama vs. Hillary. Throughout, Vidal’s devastating trademark wit was much in evidence, as was an impressive ability to perform dead-on imitations of JFK and Eleanor Roosevelt.

A condensed transcript of our conversation follows.

—John Meroney

You said earlier this month that you now wish you had supported Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries instead of Barack Obama. You said that she would make a better president.

Well, I was in a thoughtful mood.

Do you really wish you had supported Mrs. Clinton?

She would have been a wonderful president. As for my support for Obama, remember that I was brought up in Washington. It was an all-black city when I was a kid. And I’ve always been very pro-African-American – or whatever phrase we now use. I was curious to see what would happen when their time came. I was delighted when Obama appeared on the scene. But now it seems as though our original objection to him – that experience mattered – was well-founded.

Barack Obama’s books seemed to persuade many people to support him. Have you read them?

No. Does one ever read a politician’s books?

Well, Obama actually wrote them himself.

I’m sure he did. He’s highly educated – and rather better than a country like this deserves. Put that in red letters.

The President is having some difficulty getting his health care program through.

Well, if I were he, I would just give up. He should say to the country, “The Republicans will not allow these things to come to a vote without a filibuster. We can’t get anything through. So, good luck. Take two aspirin – and you’ll all die of the next epidemic.”

The death of Sen. Edward Kennedy prompted a flood of coverage about him and his career. In 1969, you said in an interview, “By 1972, Kennedy will be just another politician whom we have seen too much of, no doubt useful in the Senate but nothing more. By 1976, Camelot will not only be forgot but unrestorable, if for no other reason than that Arthur’s heir will by then be – cruelest fate of all – unmistakably fat.”

I should think that’s rather well observed.

What is Ted Kennedy’s real legacy?

It’s nothing. But I predicted that at the beginning, when Jack started backing him for his U.S. Senate seat. Historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., who was a loyal Kennedy courtier, agreed. But Jack was funny about it. He never took Arthur seriously. He always called him “the movie critic.” (Imitating JFK’s accent) “What does ‘the movie critic’ have to say about this issue?” He liked to tease Arthur.

What did Schlesinger say about Ted Kennedy?

On his own, he went to Jack and said, “It’s in the papers that you’re working behind the scenes to support Teddy. You can’t do that. You’re making an awful lot of trouble for yourself. You’re going to be accused of nepotism and worse for backing a boy who isn’t considered first-rate.” Teddy had been caught cheating at Harvard – and all the things that Republicans like to write about. I asked Arthur, “What did Jack say to that?” And he answered, (imitating JFK’s accent) “Teddy’s not running against George Washington.”

In your latest book, you claim that Mrs. Roosevelt was suspicious of John F. Kennedy because she thought he was supportive of Senator Joseph McCarthy.

He was. Jack had a nice relationship with McCarthy that I always thought was slightly improper.

So where is President Kennedy’s place in the pantheon of liberalism?

Jack was not a liberal. Why does anyone want to pretend that he was? When it came to matters of race, he behaved pretty well. But he wasn’t terribly interested in it. When he famously rang up Mrs. Martin Luther King after Rev. King had been jailed – well, Harris Wofford thought that one up. It was all the work of others who were liberals.

They were his closest advisors.

I remember when he was putting together his cabinet, he said (imitating JFK’s accent), “Do you know anybody who’s suitable for Secretary of Agriculture?” I said, “No, I don’t. And I don’t want to know anybody who’s suitable for Secretary of Agriculture.” Jack said (imitating JFK’s accent), “Well, that’s my problem. I don’t know any people.”He came up with Dean Rusk. He said (imitating JFK accent), “Who the hell is Dean Rusk?” I said, “Well, he’s your Secretary of State, I’m told.” Jack said (imitating JFK’s accent), “Oh, yeah, that’s right. He is.” When Jack got bored, he would tap his front teeth with his index finger.

Shouldn’t this be a golden age for the Democrats? They finally control both houses of Congress and elected a president.

But they don’t have a reason.

Do you blame Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi? Isn’t she a good leader?

Well, I’m not in the House, so I can’t tell you. If one wants to know about running the United States House of Representatives, look at Henry Clay. He ran it. But he’s totally unknown now, of course. I think, “Dear God, if only Henry Clay were speaker.”

Does Mrs. Clinton know how to use power the way Henry Clay did?

Yes. She has that gift. Bill Clinton does, too.

Have you met President Clinton?

Yes – and I like Bill. My family is Southern. I’m used to Bill Clintons. The country apparently wasn’t, though. At the time of his impeachment trial, I wrote a defense of him. When he claimed, “I didn’t have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky,” he was totally accurate.

You believe him?

He was talking Southern. In the South, sex is when you put it in and pump away and there’s a danger of a baby. That’s “sexual relations.” Anything else is what we called in school “messing around.” And all Southern boys messed around.

One question that has been repeatedly asked since the economic recession began is, What exactly got the country out of the Great Depression? Do you think President Roosevelt’s policies were responsible for fixing the economy?

It was mainly luck. By 1939, the Depression was back. Unemployment was huge. Roosevelt didn’t have any quick fix. Remember, the New Deal, Works Progress Administration, and Civilian Conservation Corps – all that happened years before. Roosevelt was riding a storm.

So what policies of Roosevelt do you most admire?

I had supper with Mrs. Roosevelt at Hyde Park, and she said (imitating Eleanor Roosevelt’s voice), “My Franklin and I were very impressed with something our son James did when he got back from serving in the war.” Mrs. Roosevelt said (imitating Eleanor Roosevelt’s voice), “You know, it was James who convinced the President to create the G.I. Bill of Rights.” That policy changed the whole class system in the United States. Before it, you had to be a doctor’s son to go to college. After that bill, everybody could go.

In one recent interview, you referred to FDR as a great man.

He was a very great man.

But you opposed his foreign policy.

Well, of course. FDR was damaging the Republic by his imperial ways.

How do you reconcile that with your affection for him?

It’s like saying, “I like you and your wife, but I’m not coming to your house for supper because she’s the worst cook whom I’ve ever submitted to.” Would that be considered misogyny or venom and viciousness? I’m supposedly very vicious, trying to destroy people all the time. I’m simply saying that she may be a wonderful wife, and I adore being with her—but I won’t eat a meal at her house. I have this same problem with Jack Kennedy. He was a good friend—witty, sharp, and very smart. I would rather be with him than practically anybody now alive. But what did he do for us in a thousand days? He invades Cuba, fucks up, and brings the world close to a nuclear collision over the so-called missiles down there in Cuba. Deplorable.

You’re pictured in this book doing an imitation of FDR during World War II.

Yes, I was in Alaska, the ideal place. Roosevelt sent me there.

You and Ronald Reagan have at least one thing in common: he did an excellent imitation of FDR as well.

Mine is better.

In September, director Roman Polanski was arrested in Switzerland for leaving the U.S. in 1978 before being sentenced to prison for raping a 13-year-old girl at Jack Nicholson’s house in Hollywood. During the time of the original incident, you were working in the industry, and you and Polanski had a common friend in theater critic and producer Kenneth Tynan. So what’s your take on Polanski, this many years later?

V: I really don’t give a fuck. Look, am I going to sit and weep every time a young hooker feels as though she’s been taken advantage of?

I’ve certainly never heard that take on the story before.

V: First, I was in the middle of all that. Back then, we all were. Everybody knew everybody else. There was a totally different story at the time that doesn’t resemble anything that we’re now being told.

What do you mean?

V:The media can’t get anything straight. Plus, there’s usually an anti-Semitic and anti-fag thing going on with the press – lots of crazy things. The idea that this girl was in her communion dress, a little angel all in white, being raped by this awful Jew, Polacko – that’s what people were calling him – well, the story is totally different now from what it was then.

Can't help it, love Gore.

gore vidal has probably said more indefensible things than any other person whom i still totally admire.

OTM.

the Polanski shit is just stupid and offensive though. Of COURSE Polanski's in trouble -- he's a Jew!

The RISD ruffle

The tootsie roll

the Penn pump

it doesn't surprise me much that vidal privately was something other than the roman consul/mr spock image he affected in public. his mental decline towards the end was visible even in interviews and tbh i'm not sure it's something anyone outside his family needed to know about.

remember Hitch's column?

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/hitchens-201002

haha, i remember that! it's largely and sadly otm, though vidal would have been entitled to write a response hatchet job, since hitch's decline was even uglier than vidal's dabbling in pearl harbor/911 truthism. vidal's polanski remark was undeniably appalling but hitch said comparably awful things on a regular basis at the height of his deranged neocon phase -- calling the dixie chicks "fat fucking slags," some pretty awful stuff about cindy sheehan.

:( at Vidal slagging off Idries Shah, altho I suppose I shouldn't be surprised

Bitchiness was an essential part of his public style. When he directed it properly, he made it a virtue, but he wasn't always wise in his use of it.

also, FRED ASTAIRE???? ewwwww

Yeah that I was wondering about.

Flying Down to Eeeeyeeeew

on the new documentary

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/22/how_one_sexy_gay_novel_derailed_gore_vidals_literary_career/

The new doc, available on demand, is a hagiography. Any hour spent watching YouTube clips is more entertaining.

yeah i'm certainly not gonna spend $13 to see it

https://twitter.com/JamesWolcott/status/558683822729232386

is he dead yet

lol @ "America's most controversial writer"

Alfred: he lives in the very cigarette ash you ignore.

michael mewshaw abt him on charlie rose --

i remember he was very kind to guests that we had invited to meet him at our house for dinner and he talked to these ppl uh most patiently put up with all their questions about lincoln and they were a business couple and then when we sat down to dinner he said id like to ask you a question now, and they perked up and said yes gore, "What do women think about anal intercourse?"

:D

I always want to know!

Not long ago Alice Longworth managed to startle even me by announcing, at a dinner party: "Daisy Harriman told me that every time she was alone with Senator Gore he would pounce on her. I could never understand why he liked her. After all, he was blind. But then Daisy always smelled nice."

Netflix to shoot this in Gore's villa! What would he say about Spacey?

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/kevin-spacey-to-play-gore-vidal-in-netflix-original-biopic-exclusive-1202502213/

how is it that spacey is still in the closet

I should've been cast. I've been honing my Vee-dal for months.

If Spacey goes Method in the villa, what will the budget be for teenage boy 'day labor'?

ughhh why does it have to be Spacey :(

No matter how hard Kevin Spacey (or the script) tries, I don't think he (or it) could ever faithfully capture Gore's caustic personality or the degree of contempt in which he held 'the opposition'.

Spacey is about 58, I wonder what ages he'll be playing GV? He was 43 at the big TV tiff with Buckley.

Obv the Young Vidal years would require someone handsomer.

If Spacey goes Method in the villa, what will the budget be for teenage boy 'day labor'?

― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Friday, July 21, 2017

The film is in the can, and Netflix will not release it. Gore wins!

Obv the Young Vidal years would require someone handsomer.

― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius),

uh wrong. Young Vee-dal was gorgeous.

i know! i meant handsomer than K.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=QwflYHGtZuk