Last but not least, people that attended/still attend law school - is it everything you had hoped for (for whatever reason you decided to go)? Would you recommend it?
― D Marchand, Sunday, 8 February 2004 22:10 (twenty years ago) link
i would recommend trying to get some inside info on whatever law school it is that you will attend -- you will spend 3 years there, so you might as well go where it won't be too painful.
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 8 February 2004 22:49 (twenty years ago) link
But that's a separate question from whether I would recommend it. D, I'm just not sure how to answer that. Law school in and of itself is neither good nor bad. As some posters have suggested upthread, that question can only be judged in relation to what you want in life and work.
If you have a strong desire to practice law (lawyer) or to create law (politics, legislation, lobbying, policy-making) then law school is the way to go. If however you suspect that your heart is really elsewhere (publishing, journalism, teaching, business, etc), then I'd say think real hard about whether 3 yrs of law school is the best way to get there. And if you're not sure about what you want to do, then I'd say law school is not the right place for you now. Maybe later it will be, but not now.
Sorry if this sounds redundant and obvious.
― Collardio G. (collardio), Sunday, 8 February 2004 23:14 (twenty years ago) link
I'm about a month or so away from hearing from law schools (I got some good advice on old threads which I'll try to find). Law schools like people who have worked and have diverse experience, so don't think that your background is a negative.
Biggest thing I'd reiterate is to really make sure you want to invest the time and money (average debt leaving law school is $100,000). It's understood that law school is highly competitive -- both to get in and once you're there -- in the sense of the school you get into and how well you do have a major impact on your career. Not that that should necessarily guide you, but just know it upfront.
Oh. And for $10 or $20, you can look at the US News law school rankings online. They'll give you a good sense of what sorts of grades and LSAT scores get you into what schools.
― Aaron W (Aaron W), Sunday, 8 February 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago) link
― D Aziz (esquire1983), Sunday, 8 February 2004 23:38 (twenty years ago) link
― Collardio Gelatinous (collardio), Monday, 9 February 2004 00:56 (twenty years ago) link
You've already heard about the cost, which is significant. You should enjoy speaking in public and be confident about your ability to do so, and you should be competitive by nature--these qualities will serve you well. Think hard about your decision; many of my law school classmates were completely miserable. It's great for some, but it isn't for everyone. Good Luck!
― webcrack (music=crack), Monday, 9 February 2004 05:14 (twenty years ago) link
― webcrack (music=crack), Monday, 9 February 2004 05:28 (twenty years ago) link
Now she wishes she'd stayed in, as we would be rich. And, probably, the whole dealing-with-me thing.
― Begs2Differ, Monday, 9 February 2004 05:50 (twenty years ago) link
― hstencil, Monday, 9 February 2004 06:04 (twenty years ago) link
but you still gotta spend 3 years there and get the JD in order to sit for the bar and (if you pass) practice.
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 06:07 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 06:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 07:52 (twenty years ago) link
― D Aziz (esquire1983), Monday, 9 February 2004 08:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 08:55 (twenty years ago) link
Not necessarily; it's a decent living, but there is no guarantee of richness--plenty of other careers will bring salaries as high as attorney salaries. Also, in order to make the big bucks, you need to bill upwards of 2000 hours/year, and in order to do this generally must work around 70 hours per week. When you break it down, the time/money ratio can really suck.
― webcrack (music=crack), Monday, 9 February 2004 16:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 16:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 16:55 (twenty years ago) link
― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 9 February 2004 17:23 (twenty years ago) link
― webcrack (music=crack), Monday, 9 February 2004 17:26 (twenty years ago) link
I will be joining a City firm as a trainee soon. I feel apprehensive to say the least...
― regret, Monday, 9 February 2004 19:50 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 20:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:04 (twenty years ago) link
― D Aziz (esquire1983), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:18 (twenty years ago) link
On the other hand, if you are willing to work your ass off to make something work and starve for a few years after law school, there are good jobs as a lawyer to be had.
x-post: all of the smartest, most interesting paralegals I ever worked with who took the job as a taste test all decided to do something else with their lives.
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:19 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:22 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:28 (twenty years ago) link
everyone asks me if i want to go to law school, and I always tell them no. once you work at a big firm, the luster runs off real quick. its like 'do you want to work 12 hours a day every day, have nice clothes and a nice car but absolutely no time whatsoever to enjoy them?' also, if i ever get into the situation of having a family or whatever, work would totally dominate all of your time you could be spending with them.
ive heard theres some decent firms out there that let you leave at 530, but i would assume that theyre the exception rather than the rule.
paralegaling isnt a bad gig tho. The money isnt that bad, there's tons of overtime opportunities if youre into that sort of thing, and the hours arent too heinous most of the time.
― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:40 (twenty years ago) link
― Peeney, Monday, 9 February 2004 21:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:49 (twenty years ago) link
in california at least.. you can go to school for it, but its a colossal waste of time and money. All you really need is a bachelors (and its one of the few fields where having an arts/humanity degree is helpful. mine is in history) and a legal employment agency. almost all law firms use legal recruiting/temp agencies because they dont want to screen the employees themselves and they tend to get decent people as a result. i got my start by answering a legal recruiter ad looking for someone with a BA, an 'attention for detail and organizational skills.'
once you actually get your foot in the door all you need to do is work in a law firm for a year, get some good experience and then have someone who passed the bar to sign a form that basically cites some stuff from the california business practices codes and statutes and BAM. youre a paralegal. no certificate, no school, none of that.
― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:55 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:57 (twenty years ago) link
― Peeney, Monday, 9 February 2004 21:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:05 (twenty years ago) link
So yes, I second the idea of working in the area of law in which you are interested before doing anything drastic.
Also, to quote some lawyer friends of mine: "law school is basically trade school. Do not go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer." So yes, if you think you'd like to be something other than a lawyer, there is probably a better way of getting there.
― quincie, Monday, 9 February 2004 22:05 (twenty years ago) link
amen, and so MFOTM that it coulda been me who said that :-)
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:06 (twenty years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:08 (twenty years ago) link
theres a grip of legal placement agencies. i used kelly legal. they seem to place alot of people with big firms. or at least my own firm. which is big.
if youre up north in the bay area, try landmark legal. nice people.
thats the beauty of the legal profession. you dont have to do half the work you would trying to find other kinds of work. i got my job here after being unemployed for 5 weeks a year and a half ago when the economy was SHIT-TAY. paralegaling is kind alike nursing in that respect. quite recession-proof.
― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:12 (twenty years ago) link
― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:16 (twenty years ago) link
others that'll get you far: michigan, vanderbilt, georgetown.
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:21 (twenty years ago) link
And Ivy Leaguers have gotten laid off from BIGLAW in the last few years, and I am informed that positions are much harder to come by.
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 9 February 2004 22:26 (twenty years ago) link
I was thinking of doing a combination of tax law (I already have a tax prep practice) and perhaps land use/tenants rights and work for nonprofits?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 7 December 2022 08:35 (thirteen hours ago) link
I am still not sure— I need to do some thinking.
I am primarily interested in contracts, for what it is worth. In my paralegal days, the cases involving nitty-gritty reads of contracts were my favorites.
I am torn between leaning into my current life and work as an educator, which is by all accounts going reasonably well but is financially unstable, or going into law, which seems like the most reasonable option if I want to work in a field I find interesting and have experience in.
I know these aren’t necessarily the best reasons. But I’m a poet who is nearly 40 and whose main marketable skills are in educating and editing, and those jobs are either impossible to find or pay absolute dick.
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 12:05 (ten hours ago) link
I don't think either of these sound like terrible reasons, fwiw. I definitely went in for reasons somewhat like yours table, although I was 29 rather than 40. I was an english major who had tried journalism and decided it wasn't for me, so it was either law or english teacher. As I said above, I did find a niche I like and ultimately a firm I like.
Fact that you both have some familiarity with the real world aspects of law practice is a good thing.
I honestly don't know a lot about the market for tax lawyers -- I have a vague impression that it's a good specialty to have because it's "unsexy" and therefore you don't have tons of law grads clamoring to do it. But I can't swear to that. The only thing I'd say about being a tax lawyer is that a lot of your work may wind up involving helping well-off people try to avoid paying taxes or avoid punishment for not paying taxes. That's not meant as a judgment on you if you do it, just as a caution if it isn't what you want. But it's pretty far outside my zone, so I would try to talk to tax lawyers about the practice.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 22:23 (one year ago) link
All I know is the most expensive outside lawyers my company has ever retained were big law tax lawyers for an m&a deal.
― The Bankruptcy of the Planet of the Apes (PBKR), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 22:28 (one year ago) link
people who have a genuine interest in law are mostly perverts,
lol, otm. What I mainly learned in con law, for example, is that I fucking hate con law, hate the supreme court, and hate people who are on the supreme court's jock. I often found myself thinking, if these are the best legal minds in the country, that's pretty poor reflection on the rest of us. I hated people who said "But you have to admit, Scalia is a great writer." No he fucking isn't, your mind is warped because you haven't read a normal book for the last year. And that was before the court pretty much became a council of fundamentalist clerics. I don't read SCOTUSBlog, I don't listen to the oral arguments, I don't read the journalists who cover SCOTUS, some of whom are admittedly very good. I minimize my exposure to the law to things that are directly relevant to my work.
Too much of the time, law is the art of pretending you are operating on principles when you actually aren't.
I litigate, so I deal with caselaw all the time, but mostly I care about the facts and the story and why they are compelling. Sometimes the law completely hamstrings you in unjust ways, other times you have a gap you can sneak through with a good enough set of facts and story. "Thinking like a lawyer" is mostly sophistry, but I am in a somewhat white hat area of law and try my best to bend things toward justice when I can. And toward money, of course, I don't work for a non-profit and we have to keep the business going.
That's my rant.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 22:38 (one year ago) link
The only thing I'd say about being a tax lawyer is that a lot of your work may wind up involving helping well-off people try to avoid paying taxes or avoid punishment for not paying taxes.
Hey, it's a pretty good living.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 22:39 (one year ago) link
i would love to hear your advice/thoughts, jim.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 December 2022 16:30 (one year ago) link
part of why I'm seriously considering it (as opposed to idly considering it) is that there is a lawyer who does a lot of what I am interested in doing who I have a good relationship with and he is highly in demand and has to turn down work. So, part of my thought is I could intern/apprentice under this guy.― sarahell, Wednesday, December 7, 2022 1:29 PM (yesterday)
― sarahell, Wednesday, December 7, 2022 1:29 PM (yesterday)
sounds like a great opportunity to gain experience and do something you're already doing. would there be an expectation of him giving you clients? if so, i'd be a little skeptical. but otherwise it's always great to have a known quantity.
― 龜, Thursday, 8 December 2022 16:54 (one year ago) link
Not necessarily? Like, the way I know him is that we have about a half dozen clients in common -- he is their lawyer and I am their accountant/tax person.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 December 2022 17:32 (one year ago) link
I also have tax clients that will ask me for legal advice and help and I will of course say, "I can't. I am not a lawyer"
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 December 2022 17:33 (one year ago) link
Are you a CPA, sara?
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 8 December 2022 17:34 (one year ago) link
I was an EA, then let my credential lapse (didn't do my CPE back in the mid 2000s) ... I currently am just an RTRP and have my state tax credential for limited practice (CTEC in CA), which means I have to be careful about how many clients in NY and OR I get paid to help, because otherwise I would have to get a license in those states. If I got my EA credential back, I wouldn't have to worry about the state accreditation.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 December 2022 17:36 (one year ago) link
This afternoon I get to attend what is hopefully the last meeting with the County Assessor over a client's welfare exemption (from property tax) where I am working with an actual lawyer who mostly specializes in property tax issues for low-income housing. The client is a charitable org, so the lawyer has less familiarity with the code/statutes/caselaw regarding that category of exemption, whereas I am very familiar with tax exemption issues for charitable orgs but not so much on the property tax issues.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 December 2022 17:40 (one year ago) link
income tax exemption issues = I know really well; property tax issues == i know less well, but I also know way more about building codes and permits than most tax people (sigh)
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 December 2022 17:41 (one year ago) link
Wow. I was a windbag my third year of law school.
I ended up graduating into a recession so I took the first job I could find, which was at a state workers’ comp agency. That job was trash (although, workers’ comp law is pretty interesting) and I ended up jumping straight into the loving arms of Big Law after five years and doing (sigh) single plaintiff ERISA benefits work aka insurance defense, which is pretty gross. I did that for almost 10 years because I got pregnant shortly after starting and the job was flexible and sometimes the partners were chill and the money was good and the work was interesting. Eventually it was too soul-destroying and now I’m a “knowledge management attorney” for a different big firm specializing in employment law and that is a really sweet gig.
I stayed as union-adjacent as I could for awhile, hoping I could get back into it, working as a steward for my union and doing pro bono worker rights stuff and got too close to how that particular sausage is made. I’m not anti-union, but I’m real glad I didn’t end up in labor law after all.
Anyway, my general advice is the same, which is only go to law school if you want to practice law. I’d refine it a little to say only go to law school if you can do it without incurring any debt or if you’re willing to work a less than ideal job for a decade or so while you pay off debts/get your career sorted out.
― carl agatha, Thursday, 8 December 2022 22:47 (one year ago) link
Oh, but I think you should both totally go to law school. Why not?
― carl agatha, Thursday, 8 December 2022 22:56 (one year ago) link
I have decided against for now, will consider again in a few months. A friend of a friend heard I was considering it and messaged me, saying: Look, do what you have to, but I was in your same position a year and half ago and was told to really just push hard at what I was already doing, switched up some language in my resume and CV, and now I have a good fulltime job that allows me to read and write, too. I am going to see how that works.
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Thursday, 8 December 2022 23:13 (one year ago) link
I appreciate all of the lawyerly advice, tho. I should mention my dad is a smalltown lawyer who has been working for nearly fifty years and doesn’t show any signs of stopping because he loves his job.
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Thursday, 8 December 2022 23:15 (one year ago) link
carl! agatha!!!!!
― G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Thursday, 8 December 2022 23:19 (one year ago) link
table is your dad going to say good-naturedly grumpy things like "well you could've done that 20 years ago but better late than never here's a new pair of suspenders"
― G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Thursday, 8 December 2022 23:35 (one year ago) link
Good luck, table! Hi, silby!
― carl agatha, Thursday, 8 December 2022 23:50 (one year ago) link
I can’t imagine a more anxiety inducing profession but ymmv
― calstars, Thursday, 8 December 2022 23:55 (one year ago) link
― Jeff, Friday, 9 December 2022 00:00 (one year ago) link
thanks carl, and silby, my dad has always said “you’d be a great lawyer but i never wanted to pressure you to do anything,” which frankly, thanks dad. obviously he wishes i made more money, but he also understands the unique position i’ve been in— graduated college in 07, got downsized from my first job after the crash, went to get my MFA, could only find weird gigs for years, etc.
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Friday, 9 December 2022 00:34 (one year ago) link
Dentistry
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 9 December 2022 00:39 (one year ago) link
― carl agatha, Thursday, December 8, 2022 2:47 PM (two hours ago)
yeah, I am basically thinking in terms of whether/how much debt it would lead to and what lifestyle changes I'd have to make in order to carry that debt burden. Currently I have no kids, no spouse, no debt .... but am a renter, so, I might just not do law school and buy a house instead. My Great Great Uncle was a lawyer who never went to law school, but there were ways to, I guess work and test out of the academic requirements? He ended up a judge so, I'm assuming he was a pretty good lawyer?
― sarahell, Friday, 9 December 2022 01:33 (one year ago) link
my dad has always said “you’d be a great lawyer but i never wanted to pressure you to do anything,” which frankly, thanks dad. obviously he wishes i made more money,
my mom says the same thing to me, tbh, she will also say, "Sarah, three words, estates and trusts."
― sarahell, Friday, 9 December 2022 01:36 (one year ago) link
I forget which season of Better Call Saul it was where he went into elder law but ... when I watched that, I could hear my mom saying "estates and trusts" and also my grandmother periodically updating her will to change which relative she is going to leave her best china to based on recent behavior
― sarahell, Friday, 9 December 2022 01:39 (one year ago) link
Yeah, I would explore what actually practicing law looks like. I mean, there is huge variety, but I would focus less on "law school" and more on "what my life would be like if I were a lawyer." It's been a great profession for me, but it's not for everyone. Again, I would talk to as many practitioners as you can.
As far as specifically being a tax lawyer goes, I think the biggest difference is that your role is much more as planner and advocate than preparing returns and working in compliance. As someone said upthread, if you are at a big firm you will spend your time working on huge transactions to minimize the economic hit of taxes, or possibly defending very large taxpayers against the IRS (or FTB, NY DOR, etc.). I spend most of my time helping individuals and families plan for wealth transfer. However, I know plenty of practitioners at small shops or solo firms who do quite well for themselves. The guy who does my taxes is a CPA and attorney whose practice is divided between return preparation and representation of clients before the IRS. He has a small staff and an excellent reputation; I don't think he's hurting for work.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 9 December 2022 01:42 (one year ago) link
]my mom says the same thing to me, tbh, she will also say, "Sarah, three words, estates and trusts."
+1
California probate work is quite abundant and profitable.
Prop 19 that recently passed is probably a gold rush for the profession
― sarahell, Friday, 9 December 2022 02:14 (one year ago) link
It's a gigantic pain in the ass, is what it is.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 9 December 2022 02:22 (one year ago) link
Welp, paid my fee and I’m taking the LSAT in October
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, 11 July 2023 22:41 (eight months ago) link
Good luck, table.
― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Tuesday, 11 July 2023 22:53 (eight months ago) link
yay!!! meanwhile, me and my coworker recently discussed both of us going to law school and being "study partners" ... i don't think this will happen tbh ... i will probably be posting to this thread about considering going to law school until ilx dies or I die haha
― sarahell, Wednesday, 12 July 2023 07:46 (eight months ago) link