Jean-Luc Godard: S and D

you don't see attributing criminal characteristics to an entire ethnic/religious group based on the fact that a few members of that group were infamous criminals to be offensive?

I don't see that's that what he is doing.

Again, I'm obviously just misreading this.

The Jews also came to an arrangement with the mafia quite quickly. ... one should have a closer look at the people who founded Las Vegas.

really?

The big studios were founded by Jews from central Europe, especially from Germany.

not true

Why did they go to Hollywood? Because they could get access to the American financial sector.

not true

The Jews were neither authorized to be bankers or doctors, nor lawyers or professors.

not... wait, they weren't authorized to be bankers? then how were they to get access to the American financial sector?

That’s why they concentrated on something new: cinema.

the moguls were not 18-year-old kids weighing career options. they did not choose cinema over academia/the law/banking/medicine/_____. but this is just typical godardian pseudo-smart crap, not anti-semitism.

The Jews also came to an arrangement with the mafia quite quickly.

really? not sure where he's going with this

But if you say this, immediately you are accused of being an anti-Semite, even though this is not true.

what is his point? "the jews" came to an agreement with the mafia? instead of what? did other groups in american society stand up to the mafia? or take longer doing it? or what? seems kind of like a bullshitter at work to me

People don’t see the images — one should have a closer look at the people who founded Las Vegas.

warren beatty even made a film about them... not sure, again, what he's getting at, feel kind of like he's being a lil bit anti-semitic, in context

hmm. maybe.

I really don't see him broadly talking about all Jews in that interview. Mayne, I also contend that some of your disagreements are wrong or, at least, open to other interpretations.

go on

Not arguing that there's a degree of pseudo-smart crap here, btw, I just don't think it's anti-semitic.

I think part of the thing is his inability to distinguish a small handful of Jewish guys from THE JEWS (which I should hope encompasses more than a handful of guys, most of whom aren't pursuing the American financial sector and Mafia cooperation).

but that question was about the Jews that founded Hollywood.

(i don't think they pursued wall st cooperation: the business went into mild decline in the mid-1920s (hence sound cinema) and they had to reach out, but anyway how the fuck would a major business operate OUTSIDE the financial sector? did they cooperate with the mafia more than other ethnic groups? i never heard that said before. all of this is infuriating.)

meanwhile we're all kind of sleeping on

Of course, a black person can wear glasses and a watch, but this doesn’t make us the same.

The big studios were founded by Jews from central Europe, especially from Germany.
not true

Not all or even most from Germany, but basically from Central and Eastern Europe.

Why did they go to Hollywood? Because they could get access to the American financial sector.
not true

Not really true (though it started happening early and people who came out to make their fortune were not doubt influenced by the Financial sector investment dollars), but not really anti-semitic.

The Jews were neither authorized to be bankers or doctors, nor lawyers or professors.
not... wait, they weren't authorized to be bankers? then how were they to get access to the American financial sector?

They got access to the funds because they had created a product that people wanted to invest in.

That’s why they concentrated on something new: cinema.
the moguls were not 18-year-old kids weighing career options. they did not choose cinema over academia/the law/banking/medicine/_____. but this is just typical godardian pseudo-smart crap, not anti-semitism.

agree

The Jews also came to an arrangement with the mafia quite quickly.
really? not sure where he's going with this

But if you say this, immediately you are accused of being an anti-Semite, even though this is not true.
what is his point? "the jews" came to an agreement with the mafia? instead of what? did other groups in american society stand up to the mafia? or take longer doing it? or what? seems kind of like a bullshitter at work to me

I'm not sure what this is originally referring to, or what in particular the anti-semite charges that the question in the interview was referring to were, but presumably he means that saying that Hollywood Jews were connected to the Mafia is seen as anti-semitic when it's not. It strikes me as an odd comment because I thought it was pretty well known that Hollywood moguls had mob ties at some point.

People don’t see the images — one should have a closer look at the people who founded Las Vegas.
warren beatty even made a film about them... not sure, again, what he's getting at, feel kind of like he's being a lil bit anti-semitic, in context

Again, I think he's just saying that by making those comments people will say he's anti-semitic.

God, I hate this board

boooooooring

say something meaningful or fuck off morbius, seriously

Godard will be 80 in two weeks. Go talk to your 80-yo relatives and report back on how lucid they are.

I'd think you guys could at least bond w/ him over how much he hates Spielberg and Truffaut.

(i don't think they pursued wall st cooperation: the business went into mild decline in the mid-1920s (hence sound cinema) and they had to reach out, but anyway how the fuck would a major business operate OUTSIDE the financial sector? did they cooperate with the mafia more than other ethnic groups? i never heard that said before. all of this is infuriating.)

Wall Street investment was happening well before the mid-1920s.

meanwhile we're all kind of sleeping on

Of course, a black person can wear glasses and a watch, but this doesn’t make us the same.

This is just an extension of his interest in studying 'the Other', right?

You and nrq don't have shit-meaningful to say about Godard or film in general, 5lut5ky. Go review some fucking FOOD.

Godard will be 80 in two weeks. Go talk to your 80-yo relatives and report back on how lucid they are.

right, but we're supposed to take you seriously why?

I dunno. I think early Hollywood moguls Jewish identity has been a pretty big part in studying the era, although maybe I'm channeling An Empire of their Own vibes.

Maybe what we're really learning here is that a treatise on class is fine but a treatise on ethnic groups is off-limits.

jesus christ gukbe, no one is saying pointing out that early moguls are jewish is anti-semitic in and of itself

and sorry morbs, i didnt realize being old was a valid excuse for being a racist

and honestly, if you really have anything to say yourself, i'm still waiting for it. your argument, as usual, is basically "i like or dislike this thing and if you disagree with me you're an idiot." i guess you really don't go much deeper than that huh

There's a certain amount of accepting that that's how old people are, and if he's being honest about the holocaust thing that I'd expect that would play a big role in being fascinated by the group as The Other.

How is everybody reading the "Are Jews for Diversity? For Commerce." thing?

he said "the jews" made a deal with the mafia and we need to "look into it." for fuck's sake

How is everybody reading the "Are Jews for Diversity? For Commerce." thing?

― Gukbe, Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:34 PM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark

the same as the rest of this bullshit

I have no idea if JLG is anti-Jew. I don't particularly care, anymore than the kids who stuck their tongues up Public Enemy's racist homophobic fat asses cared about that.

slocks, you make it sound like he's asking for an investigation when he's just trying to back-up why saying that Jews had involvement with the Mafia is not anti-semitic lies.

but how in particular are you reading the diversity/commerce thing?

do u not recognize that a jew, and a film lover, and a GODARD lover such as myself, might be upset by him saying this shit?

sorry, i didn't mean racist, i meant ANTI-SEMITIC [sic]

xp

I don't really care if JLG is anti-semitic or not, btw. Same way I don't care that Heidegger was a nazi.

Great artists are mostly fucking self-absorbed assholes. Deal.

To be totally transparent, Morbs, I DO find homophobia in classic hip-hop problematic. In not-classic hip-hop, it's merely convenient.

I don't really care if JLG is anti-semitic or not, btw. Same way I don't care that Heidegger was a nazi.
--Gukbe

i care abt this wrt heidegger than the othets but for reasons i disagree w/ in theory

I don't really care if JLG is anti-semitic or not, btw. Same way I don't care that Heidegger was a nazi.

― Gukbe, Wednesday, November 17, 2010 1:37 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu275/leonardo_ARG/seinfeld.gif

Go review some fucking FOOD.

^^^ meme potential?

jews being 'for commerce' -- idk, how complex is this, really? in the new film someone apparently explains how 'goldberg' means 'gold mountain'. european conservatives, and sympathizers like eliot, often associated jews with commerce, usury, greed, which threatened to disrupt the 'stable' 'homogenous' pre-capitalist society they wanted back [via nazism].

this meme's relevance to the foundation of hollywood is slight. the founders of a massive business enterprise were pro-commerce? woooow.

that "for commerce" quote is the most incriminating imo

Dunno, thought he meant that everyone is looking in the same direction, which is commerce.

Even so, it's hardly shocking, controversial, or new to say that the Hollywood moguls were interested mostly in commerce as opposed to, say, art, or diversity etc... They quite famously clamped down on director's who went over-budget or made difficult films (Von Stroheim, Wellman in the early days, more and more etc etc) that didn't sell or that they didn't think would sell to the audience.

I've not seen Film Socialisme, so I'm only going on that interview. While it is annoying and yes, art-smart crap in places, I don't think it's particularly anti-semitic. Especially when the point in the end there seems to be that if you say anything like "Hollywood Jews were interested in money" then you get called anti-semitic?

I do however understand that it's a sensitive topic, and if he is painting Hollywood Jews as obsessed with money because they're Jews, then I see that as a problem.

no, when you say "THE JEWS" stand for commerce or made a deal with the mafia or whatever, that's anti-semitic. classic, old school, fuckin' ugly and venal anti-semitism.

i really cannot tell if you are trolling tbh

but the question is referring to the Hollywood Jews (i.e. the moguls). to start off a question with that reference to his film and then quickly asking a question about 'all jews' is definitely straight up trolling on the part of the interviewer.

This area gets murky though.

xp you're right s1ocki, but on that point it might also be worth figuring out in which language the interview was done, how it was translated etc etc. I'm not trying to bail JLG out at any cost but the subtleties of definite/indefinite articles sometimes get lost in translation.

when i have a mo im gonna scare up the french interview and report back

paying attention to interviews is a bad habit of music fans/writers. If it's not in the work, it doesn't matter.

I don't like Godard's answer on the etymology of "anti-Semitism" either, but at this point I get the feeling his only goal in interviews is to fuck w/ the questioner.

don't you post links to interviews all the time?

i mean i kind of agree but i'm not using his comments to judge "film socialisme"