actually wait I've never seen anyone advance the argument that NK should be invaded on ANY grounds now that I think about it
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link
You all are bickering like North and South Korea.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway is yr point that concluding that Iraq/DPRK is so bad and hated is a necessary condition for mounting popular support for war? yes duh.
― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link
but as shakey said: no one is concluding that war is a good idea. could you? sure go ahead
― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link
calling opponent "lunatics" is literally a million times less serious than making an agument for war.
― Vanpire Halend (kkvgz), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:16 (thirteen years ago) link
aimless being somewhat hyperbolic but yes concluding that the situation is unworkable because yr adversary is omg crazy wont listen to reason is a fairly universal rational for war
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link
Disrespecting them isn't going to add anything useful to the mix, Shakey.
There do not seem to be any constructive actions available to us at present that we are not already taking. Dehumanizing them, disrespecting them, or demonizing them is not productive of anything but a mindset that makes it easier to demand action, even when that action makes matters worse, and a sense of superiority that clouds one's judgment.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link
none of us are making any decisions re nk iirc
― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:24 (thirteen years ago) link
can't believe shakey mo collier just nuked n korea
― buzza, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link
the thing abt n koreas serial provocations is that this is how they engage in diplomacy, they just want a lil food and attention, and yeah theyre pretty skilled at putting their negotiating partners in a lesser of two evils type bind
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link
Shit, gbx, I'm pretty sure this will mean little to you, but we are all making decisions about how we regard NK, and those decisions do make a difference in a situation like this. Americans were predisposed to hate commies in 1963, and N. Vietnam was full of commies. We were predisposed to hate Saddam. We're now becoming more and more predisposed to hate on Muslims generally. NK is still in the nasty commies camp. Etc.
It's not like engaging in such thinking is utterly without consequence.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link
dude why do you insist on being a such smug asshole? you made a pretty facile observation (yes, othering the enemy is a waypoint on the road to war) and seem to be intent on suggesting that if i or anyone else thinks "man the dprk doesn't seem like a very rational actor" then we are already apologists for a war that hasn't even happened, and likely won't. which is a good thing, btw.
― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:34 (thirteen years ago) link
Heavens, those facile observations just keep getting in the way of the greater profundities being exchanged here.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:43 (thirteen years ago) link
ha
― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:43 (thirteen years ago) link
haha ok fair
― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:44 (thirteen years ago) link
north korea is just going to have to get by with me thinking their ruling clique is a bunch of monsters.
american hawks are going to have to get by likewise.
― goole, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:44 (thirteen years ago) link
not that they're the same or anything!!
I'm nuking all of you btw
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:46 (thirteen years ago) link
shocker!
― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:46 (thirteen years ago) link
amazing that a thread titled "North Korea: still hilarious" is light on int'l diplomacy seriousness
― fwiw: lol iirc sb'd u tbqh (dan m), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:47 (thirteen years ago) link
feel like w/north korea people are confusing awfulness for irrationality, seems like their actions bare their desired fruits as often as any more humane nations, the fact that theyre in process of an unprecedented in modern times for a despotic pariah state third generational transfer of power is testament to the fact that they know what theyre doing
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:47 (thirteen years ago) link
starving your populace not the most rational of political decisions imho. hasn't worked out very well historically.
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:48 (thirteen years ago) link
rational enough for you and your army if there's not much food around
― goole, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:50 (thirteen years ago) link
except in china (site of the worst starvation in human history) and north korea, at some point yall hand waving psychologists are gonna have to grapple w/the fact that n korea has been a country for like 60 years, something yr average lunatic would have a hard time managing xp
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:53 (thirteen years ago) link
i think icey is right; the 'irrationality' is thrown out there, sometimes, to say, there's nothing we can do, the whole country is nuts, bombs away already.
but there is a big question as to how deep into the populace and how fanatical the support of the Kims goes. it could be most of the country is very clear-eyed about who is causing their misery. or it could be there really are huge swathes of true believers who'd rather die than join the South. it kinda depends on which other despotism you want to compare it to.
― goole, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:55 (thirteen years ago) link
they've extended the Mao/Stalin model farther/longer than either managed. Agree that the real miracle has been the transition of power from one ruler to the next, with no real attendant change in policy. Highly unusual. they're kind of in uncharted territory in that respect
xp
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:56 (thirteen years ago) link
read this interview w/a n korean escapee teen girl who went across a froze river into china and she was clear that at least where she was from in the western part of the country people hate the government pretty much but they just got them so locked down that any sort of uprising feels pretty impossible - they snatch people up and throw them in work camps at the drop of hat, control commerce tightly etc - and as is typical in these situations the leadership is protected by a relatively large favored elite - now obvs that anecdotal but its consistent w/what other refugees say and you makes sense
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link
but also these regimes fall apart from an outsiders pov at seemingly random times - it kind of feels like just looking at it how long can this bizarre anachronism exist in the world today - that may just be lack of imagination speaking tho
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:05 (thirteen years ago) link
maybe un will just say fuck it and hand his problems over to his friends in the south, thatd be nice
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:06 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^that's definitely how I feel about it. it's kind of some cruel miracle that the regime has lasted this long, they've run with this schtick longer and farther than anyone ever has. it's bizarre.
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:07 (thirteen years ago) link
The schtick is slowly losing its grip internally, if Barbara Demick's recent book is to be believed. The famine seems to have dulled much (but not all obv) of the blind GL/DL adulation.
― Friday: vuvuzela club meeting (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:10 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post The country is pretty irrational, isn't it? Unlike, say, Iran, whose wants, needs and desires can be frustrating but are pretty clear, and whose positions are pretty well understood, N. Korea is an enigma. Leave 'em alone? They don't like that. Give them what they want? They like that, as long as you realize they want more. Engage? They break off talks. Suggest talks? They require good faith actions (but don't expect any in return). I mean really, everything we do for N. Korea we essentially do just to keep some semblance of talks going. Meanwhile. N. Korea does whatever it wants. What's unclear about N. Korea is either a) it really thinks it's in danger of invasion or b) it's just cynically using that alleged threat as a pretense for aggressive bargaining. But you've got to figure N. Korea could get a lot more out of cooperation than it does from total obstinence, without losing a bit of autonomy. Again, look at Iran, hardly pushovers. There are any number of despotic regimes that do what they want, yet aren't quite so isolated. How exactly does N. Korea benefit from its behavior? That is, what can it get by behaving the way it does that it probably couldn't get by some other less antagonistic means?
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:18 (thirteen years ago) link
just cause you dont know what theyre doing doesnt mean they dont know what theyre doing
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link
what can it get by behaving the way it does that it probably couldn't get by some other less antagonistic means?
yeah this is the yardstick I'm measuring them by
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:24 (thirteen years ago) link
by that measure most if not all countries are insane
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:27 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't know about that
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link
Most if not all countries don't let their people starve en masse to strengthen a bargaining position.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link
My point is that N. Korea can still stay plenty inscrutable, unpredictable, mysterious, whatever, toning things down a few notches from where it stands now.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:31 (thirteen years ago) link
and my point is pretty much every country could stand to tone it down a notch or two, people be aggressive and are hard to reason w/if its working out for them
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link
pretty sure this is all fallout from them not getting out of the group stage in south africa
― caek, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post But again, most countries do not allow their people to starve. Though I'm not sure who is worse on this front, Kim or Mugabe. At least North Koreans gets top-notch security out of the deal!
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:10 (thirteen years ago) link
I feel like Mugabe's as bad as it gets in pretty much every way but I'll cop to knowing a lot less about NK
― Megatherium americanum (Princess TamTam), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:11 (thirteen years ago) link
josh i really have no idea what you are arguing except that n korea has let its people starve and most countries dont do that, if thats all youre saying then yes i agree n korea has let its people starve and most countries dont do that
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:14 (thirteen years ago) link
Most countries also have free public health care.
― Telephoneface (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:17 (thirteen years ago) link
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images/kim-jong-il-smiling.jpg
health care? yeah ill give you some health care
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:25 (thirteen years ago) link
n korea still hilarious^
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:26 (thirteen years ago) link
I liked Hitchens' term about North Korea's government: a necrocracy.
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:36 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post I wasn't making an argument. It's just that every time someone said "North Korea is crazy!" you'd say something like "well, lots of countries are crazy." "North Korea is aggressive!" "Well, lots of countries are aggressive." I was trying to demonstrate one way that North Korea is not like other countries, and how its behavior reflects the mindset of a nation that would willfully let its own people starve. That is to say, irrational to the extent that its extreme purported self-preservation has been perverted into a sow form of self-destruction. Not a lot of countries like that (save Zimbabwe, but Zimbabwe does not make military threats).
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link
(Ha, that should be "slow form of self-destruction." Though I imagine the lack of sows in N. Korea hasn't helped the food issue.)
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link
Part of studying history, and exercising the right judgment, I think, is recognizing when examples don't follow the predicted norms of behavior or patterns. North Korea is one.
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link