The Comics Journal's top 100 comics of the century - S and D

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Chris, I don't think KK being at no.1 has anything to do w/ Fantagraphics trying to 'popularise' their collections. KK = Sgt. Pepper.

Andrew L (Andrew L), Sunday, 13 April 2003 18:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

You are more cynical than me, Chris. In 1999 everyone in every field was doing Best Of The Century lists, and it would have been fairly surprising if they hadn't done something very like this. I'm not sure how much impact it would have on sales of the collections. I'd certainly have bought mine anyway, of course.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 13 April 2003 18:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

And it's nice to agree w/ my old pal Martin S that Bloom County shld be in the Top 100 WORST comics of all time.

Andrew L (Andrew L), Sunday, 13 April 2003 18:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

But Andrew (re your previous post), Krazy Kat really is great.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 13 April 2003 19:01 (twenty-one years ago) link

Andrew: That's right, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that (perhaps) Fantagraphics produced the list so that there could be articles in the newspapers reminding the generally apathetic public that KK = #1.

And Martin: Everyone in every field was doing Best Of Century lists in order to get the public to buy their product (what publisher was it that did that best books list? for example). I dunno, I'm not saying it was wrong of Fantagraphics to do it or anything...

Chris P (Chris P), Sunday, 13 April 2003 19:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

Several people did best books lists. I'm not sure if any were completely divorced from publishing. I'm not sure I buy the thinking though, which seems to be something like "we will do a Best Ever Comics poll. We know Krazy Kat will win. We will be publishing collections in just three years time. Three year old poll results in our mag will boost its sales."

I think if I'd still been publishing the closest the UK came to TCJ (not very close!), I'd have done one of these polls too. I wouldn't have expected anything I'd been involved with to appear!

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 13 April 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well, also my understanding is that the KK books were much-delayed. But you could also use the list to test the waters for just how sellable the books would be, etc.

Was your comics [magazine?] mostly focused on the Kirby-esque comics or did you wander into "art" comics/strip comics as well?

Chris P (Chris P), Sunday, 13 April 2003 19:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

We tried to cover the whole spread - superheroes, arty adult stuff, European and Japanese and British comics, whatever I thought was interesting and could find someone to write about. Lots of interviews with the top UK people like Moore, Gaiman, Gibbons, Bolland, McKean and all that, and some of those above, like Bagge, Spiegelman, Eisner and Chester Brown. We had covers by some of those too, and (among many others) Steve Ditko. When I handed it over to someone else (one more issue, then it folded) Alex Toth had agreed to do an interview and cover. We had one writer in common with TCJ. Andrew L used to write for it. Alan Moore did a series of articles on writing, which TCJ reprinted some years later. I wanted to get up to their critical and writing standards, but without losing the sense that entertainment was worthwhile in itself, and anyway I still think that there are very, very few comic books better than the best superhero comics, such as the Kirby/Ditko Marvel stuff.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 13 April 2003 19:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

And it's nice to agree w/ my old pal Martin S that Bloom County shld be in the Top 100 WORST comics of all time.

Clearly you two are aliens.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 13 April 2003 19:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

Or possibly war criminals

Millar (Millar), Sunday, 13 April 2003 19:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

'panelologists'

Andrew L (Andrew L), Sunday, 13 April 2003 20:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

Bloom County = great for Deathtongue and Tess Turbo alone. All the rest is gravy.

Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Sunday, 13 April 2003 22:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think this was restricted to English-language comics, hence the omission of Herge et al. More info about how the list was compiled here: http://www.tcj.com/3_online/f_curtain.html

Total absence of Superman and Batman = some kind of statement, surely?

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well, what superlative Superman stuff stands out? The only notable stuff I can think of is anything drawn by Curt Swan (story notwithstanding) and John Byrne's reboot (which is notable only for the hubbub it caused, maybe).

If _Dark Knight Returns_ sees no love from this list, I can't think of any other Batman tales getting love (except, um, _The Killing Joke_, in case folks think there's not enough Alan Moore representation on the list).

Ned & Sean are on my side re: Bloom County = WE ARE RIGHT. Maybe.

David R. (popshots75`), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Bloom County was hilarious, but I wonder how it'll stand up 50 years from now when no one remembers who Caspar Weinberger was.

I actually don't have a big problem with the top 10 on this list, though there's plenty of other stuff I'd have liked to see included.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

Bloom County = classic. My dad bought me every book for Christmas when I was 12 plus innumerable Opus plushies. I just recently sold all of them on ebay just because I hate moving w/ stuff and it was a very sad day. Bill the Cat, Steve Dallas, USS Starchair Enterpoop...argh how could they not recognize this.

Also I don't understand Ghost World being so high up while Optic Nerve not being on there at all, especially since I feel they are very similar, except OPtic Nerve didn't get the star casting.

Carey (Carey), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

I still have two Opus dolls and always will.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 14 April 2003 00:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yeah, Justin makes a good point - a good deal of Bloom County's appeal and goodness sits squarely in the context in which it was created, and I can't see most folks that aren't schooled in 1980s US-centric culture stuff will really "get it".

But, then, all those old Warner Bros. cartoons (circa 1930-40) are peppered w/ oodles and oodles of pop cult references, and when the cartoon works, knowing who Peter Lorre is (for instance) doesn't make one bit of difference.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 14 April 2003 00:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

Oh, I meant to say that I sold all my books but not the Opus dolls. I still have opus going on vacation, love monkey opus, opus wrapped up like a gift... I remember my dad scouring stores trying to find me a Bill the Cat. Ned, our Opi shall play together one day (dirty!)

Carey (Carey), Monday, 14 April 2003 02:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

(dirty!)

Christina Aguilera playing with Opus dolls in a wrestling ring = the FEAR.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 14 April 2003 02:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

Filthy!

Carey (Carey), Monday, 14 April 2003 02:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ummmmmmmmmmm

The Far Side? Did I miss it?

jm (jtm), Monday, 14 April 2003 02:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

The Far Side wasn't a comic, it was a single panel gag (with rare exceptions), so I wouldn't consider it eligible.

Overrated stuff in the top 10: 3, 4, 5, 6, 9. All of these are good, so I'm not terribly agitated, but none are in the same class as Segar's Popeye dailies.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 14 April 2003 11:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ah, I see you've fallen for the McCloud Fallacy Of Single-Panel Comics.

I'd agree that Pogo and Feiffer are overrated on that list; I haven't read enough Nemo to judge, and I don't know anything about 9. But you think Maus is overrated? Yes it's almost as obvious a chioce as Krazy Kat for top 10 inclusion but what's your specific beef with it? I'm curious.

Chris P (Chris P), Monday, 14 April 2003 14:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

He doesn't have to have a specific beef with it to consider it good-but-ovverrated. It was one in a long line of "Finally! Comic Books have Grown Up!" books when it was released.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 14 April 2003 14:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

I do think there is a meaningful and useful distinction between single panel gags and comics, and I think that might account for Larson not getting in - otherwise it's just stupidity.

I do think Maus was very good, but I think people were overly impressed simply because a comic dealt with such issues. It's the old performing dog thing. That is unfair, but I don't think it has any of the formal and experimental interest of a lot of Spiegelman's best work. I may also react against it because when I interviewed him he was very inclined to use the "but it's the Holocaust! How dare you!" stratagem against any criticism. I think its use of animals has very severe problems. I would certainly have it in my 100, but far lower than fourth place.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 14 April 2003 17:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

Wasn't Dennis the Menace a single panel, too?

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 08:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Dennis the Menace was a strip, Family Circus was the single panel one

but there are a number of single panel things up there, herblock's editorial cartoons, most of the New Yorker cartoons so don't understand the reason for leaving Larson out

H (Heruy), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 09:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

Spiegleman is a testy old fuck, you're right. But in a good way, I thought.

For not unobvious reasons, I vote Tintin in Tibet.

Captain Haddock (Captain Haddock), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 09:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

I second that. In my opinion, Tintin is the best comic, period (Krazy Kat being the second best). And Tintin in Tibet perhaps the most moving of all the Tintin albums, so the good captain is right.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 09:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

I didn't realise that there were single panel cartoons in there (the items in question haven't come over here, that I've noticed). That means that stupidity is the only excuse for excluding Larson.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 16:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

If the Far Side should be included, so should Dilbert. At least the latter has characters and plots...

kieran, Tuesday, 15 April 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

Dennis the Menace started as a strip but became a single-panel later

M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 20:41 (twenty-one years ago) link

yeah, i got confused after my earlier post beacuse I thought I could picture both - but NYorker cartoons etc still stand as single panel pieces

H (Heruy), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 20:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

Far Side should be banished for using a mime joke.

Leee (Leee), Wednesday, 16 April 2003 04:21 (twenty-one years ago) link

The adaptation of _City of Glass_ is brilliant, imho. Highly recommended for any Paul Auster or comic fans. Great realization of story in the medium.

Colin Saunders (csaunders), Wednesday, 16 April 2003 06:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

I heartly second that.

Chris P (Chris P), Wednesday, 16 April 2003 17:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

I have to object slightly to Bill Mauldin's inclusion for his "Willie and Joe" cartoons from WWII. While he was the best front-line cartoonist of the war, his cartoons from the years immediately following the war take on much more controversial subjects, and I would rather see him listed for those, or just listed as an artist in general. I put some scans from that period up for the bookstore I work for: http://atlasbowerbooks.com/mauldin.html

Dave Fischer, Thursday, 17 April 2003 05:08 (twenty years ago) link


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