A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

i like 'cubicle indie', which i got from ilx

or "art-schlock" as Chuck used up thread, if you're really offended

x-post but hot chip is cubicle indie, right?

cubicle indie is perfect

cubikindie.

mia is cubicle indie

Schmindie I get, indie + schmaltz, but is the m in "mindie" for middling? not as good. "art-rock"'s worked for decades, stick with that.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, October 16, 2007 2:59 PM (49 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

Art-rock is Battles and Liars and TV On The Radio, which he's clearly not talking about.

tv on the radio is pretty cubicle indie in my experience

arcade fire, fiery furnaces, devendra, panda bear all qualify as art-rock too, just the lighter side rather than the king crimson side

i dont know if most dudes who listen to rock music thats influenced by black music really even know or care about that

Are black guys who hang out with white hipsters required to have large retro afros?

ban dally

in h.s. my friends gf got kicked out of the house & had to move into the projects w/ this redneck dude (this is SC ok) and whenever we listened to rap (just, like, biggie or tribe) he would bust out the racist that-aint-music bullshit but his favorite shit ever was kid rock

I like SFJ articles on average, but this really reads like several unrelated takes on race and music thrown together with a healthy dose of weird race guilt.

What's the end result supposed to be, from all of this? Wilco figure out syncopation? Arcade Fire get some soul? New bands are formed that are into "miscegenation?" And why is it popular black music that indie white musicians are supposed to engage with, anyway?

The only real argument he throws out, among mentioning the diversity of influences that hip hop picks up on, bickering about the lack of rhythmic variation in indie rock, and going on with some sort of unrelated history lesson, is the "lassitude and monotony" that indie rock apparently gets stuck in.

Has he not realized that this is a genre with a lot of anal-retentive individuals thinking there's some purity of form to conform to, and a fanbase that writes about every move without any sense of levity? It's like SFJ fell for the indie trap by even making an argument.

That's not to say that every indie band is out there churning out music that's trying to reach some perfect indie rock formula or whittle their own aesthetic to a fine point, but there sure are quite a few who seem to do that sort of thing.

i worked at this store last summer & there was this white metal dude, real nerd type heavy into his celtic heritage & drinking guiness & listening to kmfdm, bitched & moaned when i put on any soul or r&b shit but had like 30 cd-rs of everlast, 311 & sublime in his cd booklet

all that "commercial, but generally unappealing" stuff

(btw, you gotta love a construction that contradictory)

"appealing to a general audience, but generally unappealing"

x-post to and what

some people really can't handle the full breadth of music, they need artistic reinterpretations done by contemporary artists from their social and economic class

where is the indie pat boone?

by social & economic class you mean ethnicity right? i dont think kid rock was any more in this dudes 'social & economic' class than biggie smalls was

Indie Pat Boone is Magnetic Fields

indie pat boone is living in the heart of every ironic rap cover

Nitpicky point: "Grizzly Bear has no relation to black music" As evidenced by the their cover of "He Hit Me (It Felt Like A Kiss)" that they've been doing all year?

This was the exact same thought I had when I read that sentence.

I'm still kind of happy that, whatever issues I ended up having with them, the friends I would go to lunch with in mid-high school were into playing wilson pickett and sam & dave tapes when we were driving to taco john's. That and the cassette single for "all about the benjamins" which somehow got into rotation.

x-post yeah, I guess I mean ethnicity

post-funk

"bitched & moaned when i put on any soul or r&b shit but had like 30 cd-rs of everlast, 311 & sublime in his cd booklet"

Ouch

SFJ basically spends the whole article trying to be a reverse-Geir, asserting the vague idea that there's some straight line out of Africa from which all rhythm is derived, and that all white musicians should either bow down to this awesome force and incorporate it into their music as faithfully as possible, or get out of the way and let black people make all the music. He not only laments (in reference to Michael Jackson) that "he alone could not alter pop music’s racial power balance," but puts forth the idea that Dr. Dre did tip the scales in the 'right' direction.

Are black guys who hang out with white hipsters required to have large retro afros?

-- dally, den 16 oktober 2007 15:03 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

No, but it’s an acute observation.

"bitched & moaned when i put on any soul or r&b shit but had like 30 cd-rs of everlast, 311 & sublime in his cd booklet"

maybe, like SFJ, he more interested in miscegenation.

he WAS more

but puts forth the idea that Dr. Dre did tip the scales in the 'right' direction.

Snoop's hair tipped the scale in the right direction.

in london we lived w/ these two white anarchists who only listened to white rappers, from such diverse subgenres that was clear the only thing they prized was whiteness - eminem, sage francis, el-p, necro, paul barman, aesop rock, edan.... what the fuck does any of these dudes music have in common besides being made by white dudes??? the only non-white rapper they liked was immortal technique, who is some kind of south american dude or something

SFJ basically spends the whole article trying to be a reverse-Geir,

haha when I read the essay last night I envisioned a Richard Roeper-esque Geir response.

xxxp the craziest thing in that whole article to me was when he says hall & oates were on the same level of talent as mj

Are black guys who hang out with white hipsters required to have large retro afros?

-- dally, den 16 oktober 2007 15:03 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

You forgot tight sweater/shirt combo.

Pitchfork has yet to spearhead a H&O revival.

in london we lived w/ these two white anarchists who only listened to white rappers, from such diverse subgenres that was clear the only thing they prized was whiteness - eminem, sage francis, el-p, necro, paul barman, aesop rock, edan.... what the fuck does any of these dudes music have in common besides being made by white dudes??? the only non-white rapper they liked was immortal technique, who is some kind of south american dude or something

-- and what, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 16:17

yeah, this is weird. you sometimes meet undie rap guys that listen to mostly white rappers and hate mainstream black pop, but still rate the odd successful rock band.

"bitched & moaned when i put on any soul or r&b shit but had like 30 cd-rs of everlast, 311 & sublime in his cd booklet"

Haha, reminds me of how the lead singer of my cubicle-indie band said the other night how Rage Against the Machine and 311 were both huge musical epiphanies for him in college because they combined the metal he loved in high school with a hip-hop influence.

Pitchfork has yet to spearhead a H&O revival.

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, October 16, 2007 3:20 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/feature/44913-interview-daryl-hall

that's pretty lame, the New Yorker piece. you'd need someone on the level of Albert Murray to sort this shit out, and I wouldn't think indie folk have ever heard of him nor read him on the real values blues culture embraces. White people hear "transgression" and "menace" in blues; people in actual blues culture hear something far different--joy, swing, defiance, maybe, and that joy in improvisatory living brought on by difficult circumstances that Murray explains far better than I ever could, in Stompin' the Blues and other works. In my opinion, it's just the typical white American half-assed sense of history, and blues culture is difficult to get because whites look at thru all this guilt. You know, when you go to the typical blues show in Memphis or somewhere, where white people are, they're all really into it and trying to show their blues cred, and of course, it's funny as hell to watch. I'm white and I've done it myself, so I know what I'm talking about, and I read Lester Bangs years ago. He's right, and he was courageous enough to try to come to grips with all this. And of course, human nature being what it is, there is certainly an attraction to the bad-ass nigger aspect of everything, which is a joke to intelligent black people, and a trope in everything from early rock 'n' roll (the Clovers, Wynonie Harris, etc.) to Funkadelic or Mer-Da (one song of theirs is about killing the friend who was fucking his wife, my goodness! has Will Oldham ever written one like that?!!?). So it's all just ridiculous, in my opinion, the New Yorker getting all worked up over some middle-class white people with no soul and no funk and no sense of space. Any indie-rock scene is full of people whose primary influences are like Gal Costa and Pavement and John Fahey and stuff like that, try talking to them about the virtues of Mer-Da or Bobby Bland on MCA or whatever--they might know about all that black music but they are not going to play that way. Because they don't have the discipline to do it, nor would their audiences know what to think if some indie group suddenly came out and started up on the Meters' "Pungee." This is not to say that there aren't plenty of indie people who don't appreciate it. And as above, jam bands do attempt to play like this, except they just don't get it, they're far too ropey to ever understand the understatement and the rigor of the playing of the Hi Rhythm section or Booker T. or James Brown or...name it. Of course, many indie folk are into Sharon Jones and Bettye LaVette, and they go out for good money these days. The aesthetics are different; to swing like Basie's rhythm section requires listening to Basie, and indie people are gonna sit around listening to John Fahey or M. Ward or some of those No Depression people, if they're a bit older and into roots music. Too, jazz, blues and soul presupposed an apprenticeship of sorts--you went on the road, you learned the standards, you learned way more shit than the typical indie person who got in a band and learned some rock songs or stuff from his older brother's '70s record collection. A generation of people who think irony is all there is and rock and roll the answer to everything--and it's not even good rock and roll, a lot of the time. I keep coming back to Fahey and the worship of someone like him, or of Lee Hazelwood (interesting guy but I mean come on, this is what it's come down to?), just seems funny to me, and sad. There's a lot more out there and it ain't all about texture and that post-folkie shit, is it? It isn't, in my world. This isn't to say that Fahey or Lee don't have value, and of course, expansion of canon is valuable. But that canon does not include Bobby Bland on Malaco, and that's a shame. What I've always like about black music isn't "transgression" but the humor and ease of it, the discipline mixed with the ability to get out there. I also love indie stuff, as far as it goes, listen to plenty of Swedish pop influenced by Nancy Sinatra and Caetano Veloso, you know, that kind of thing. And to Wilco. Who are obviously not going to play like the Dramatics or Al Green. Also, remember that plenty of black artists listened to the Beatles and went, hmm, those guys are into something. So we could talk about how black music could be really conservative and how indie or rock music helped shake them up. It works both ways, and I'd be remiss to not note that.

Finally, the comment about Pavement ruining music is absurd. They did their best to swing, and sometimes did it, and they were an honest attempt to play classic rock.

This sentence is pretty mind-boggling, by the way (if we assume he not only says it could be argued, but actually, you know, argues it):

You could argue that Dr. Dre and Snoop were the most important pop musicians since Bob Dylan and the Beatles.

Snoop Dogg’s UK Top 40 History:

20 Snoop Doggy Dogg What's My Name Dec 1993
39 Snoop Doggy Dogg Gin And Juice Feb 1994
32 Snoop Doggy Dogg Doggy Dogg World Aug 1994
12 Snoop Doggy Dogg Snoop's Upside Your Head Dec 1996
18 Snoop Doggy Dogg Vapors May 1997
21 Snoop Doggy Dogg featuring JD We Just Wanna Party With You Sep 1997
36 Snoop Doggy Dogg Tha Doggfather Jan 1998
13 Snoop Dogg Snoop Dogg Apr 2001
27 Snoop Dogg From Tha Chuuuch To Da Palace Nov 2002
23 Snoop Dogg featuring Pharrell Beautiful Apr 2003
10 Snoop Dogg featuring Pharrell Drop It Like It's Hot Dec 2004
13 Snoop Dogg featuring Pharrell Let's Get Blown Mar 2005
2 Snoop Dogg featuring Charlie Wilson & Justin Timberlake Signs May 2005
39 Snoop Dogg featuring Charlie Wilson & Justin Timberlake Signs (re-entry) Jul 2005
36 Snoop Dogg Ups And Downs Aug 2005
38 Snoop Dogg featuring R Kelly That's That Dec 2006

Dr Dre’s UK Top 40 History (as a solo artist — yeah, I know, “one of the most successful producers ever,” but there are many claimants to that throne):

31 Dr Dre Nuthin But A G Thang / Let Me Ride Jan 1994
25 Dr Dre Keep Their Heads Ringin Jun 1995
15 Dr Dre & LL Cool J Zoom Jul 1998
6 Dr Dre featuring Snoop Doggy Dogg Still D.R.E. Mar 2000
7 Dr Dre featuring Eminem Forgot About Dre Jun 2000
3 Dr Dre featuring Snoop Dogg The Next Episode Feb 2001
4 Dr Dre featuring Knoc-Turn'al Bad Intentions Jan 2002

US music critics ignorant of non-US chart trends, story at 10.

"Daryl Hall" is not "H&O," alex, and the focus, as I wrote elsewhere, was on his Fripp collab.

It works both ways, and I'd be remiss to not note that.

KRAFTWERK

sorry, Alfred, I just figured you hadn't seen that interview based on your question. but there's been a big "H&O was better than you think" re-evaluation in indie/critic circles for years and years now.

I think that all of this bitching about musical artists is a bullshit cover for SFJ's annoyance at a fanbase that he has a distaste for.

the craziest thing in that whole article to me was when he says hall & oates were on the same level of talent as mj

I had a hard time getting past that. I thought, "He must live in that alternate universe where Lawrence Welk and Duke Ellington are neck-and-neck."

Can the term "classic rock" be banned.

how bout "wrinkle rock" instead?

and really, one could say the exact same thing about the "Americana" movement, right? Americana extols someone like Guy Clark (whom I like fine) over Kid Creole and the Coconuts (whom I love). Who's really more "American"? I mean, I guess you could put Townes Van Zandt on a Whitman sampler kind of thing, but August Darnell, who had far more to say about what American culture is really about, is just gonna scare people. You are not ever going to convince me that some Townes Van Zandt song is better than "Annie, I'm Not Your Daddy." A sense of humor always helps, I guess, and also getting shushed by people in Nashville's Bluebird Cafe, when you're just in a club like the ones you've been going to in Memphis or Jackson, Miss., where you can cut up like you're supposed to in a club and not view it as a church for songwriters, and you're bored by Steve Forbert playing his songs on four strings up there to people too dumb to know it's a shuck, helps too. So it's not just indie; it's the perception that rhythm and danceable stuff equals something less profound than Guy Clark or some of those singer-songwriters getting dusty in Texas and Nashville. It's just plain funny.