Major superheroes/villains who died and have stayed dead - are there any?

and is spidey now a member? whut? does he only wear the white uniform on ff duties??

Waiting for the inevitable Spider-Man/Wolverine bi-weekly team-up book, because those characters really aren't used enough.

spideys been a ff member a few times prior.
human torch death won't last any longer than a year. issue 600 sounds right.

I think Banshee is still dead. Tho at this point he's kinda the exception that proves the rule and they even had a whole arc in X-Factor where Theresa refuses to accept he'll stay dead bc after all he's a super hero

Banshee was revived briefly for Claremont's wholly superfluous X-Men tie-in for the Chaos War, along with Thunderbird, Moira MacTaggert, the dead Stepford Cuckoos and a couple of Jamie's dupes (inc. the one who died of Legacy). It was basically two issues of "Hey aren't we dead? I guess that makes us perfect cannon fodder!"

fucking Claremont

Wait, Claremont is still writing canon comics? I thought they put him on that WHAT IF I ALWAYS WROTE X-MEN comic and left him there.

Well said, Mordy. Pretty sure he sneaks off to do other things but still acts like that's the basic premise.

Hickman has come up with some interesting ideas on FF, but I don't think he's good at translating them into anything with thrillpower -- at least until the Negative Zone incursion into the Baxter Building.

I like Hickman's ideas but his writing/stories are like watching paint dry. Secret Warriors has a bit more action, but the rest is pretty zzzzzzzz.

I agree with the two above posts, Hickman's has some cool ideas, and I like the way he writes Reed, but his run has lasted something like 20 issues now, he's introduced new plot elements in almost all of them, and none of those things have been resolved yet. I guess it's possible he has some grand design in his mind that is to be slowly revealed in the next 20+ issues, but at the moment it's kinda boring to read about stuff happening on top of other stuff happening without any clear story arc to it.

so basically you are saying he's like Lobdell, only with cool ideas

fucking Claremont

He co wrote it with Louise Simonson who posted online that the edtitors had dictated to them the characters they were and weren't allowed to use.

I dunno, I've never really read anything Lobdell.

Another thing that kinda bothers me in Hickman's run: I haven't read FF for a looong time, so when it first appeared, I had no idea what that weird parallel Earth that's about to sink into a black hole is, or who the characters that inhabit it are. Some of that stuff gets explained later in Hickman's run, but some of it is still a mystery to me. I miss the days when superhero comics used to have big expository panels that explained everything whenever things from earlier in the continuity reappeared. Why don't they have those panels any more? No wonder superhero comics aren't gaining any new readers, if even people like me who are relatively knowledgeable about their past get confused.

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He co wrote it with Louise Simonson who posted online that the edtitors had dictated to them the characters they were and weren't allowed to use.

lol, so which editor was the Thunderbird fanboy, because the whole thing read like tacky fan-fiction

xp: Tuomas, you never read any of the following:

* The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix (4-issue mini-series)
* Alpha Flight vol. 2 #1-12
* Buffy the Vampire Slayer (with Fabian Nicieza) #47-59
* Daredevil #376-379
* The Darkness #23-38
* Excalibur #31, #35-41, #53, #58-60, #68-71, #75-82
* Fantastic Four #1-3, 4-5 (with Chris Claremont, 1998)
* Galaxy Quest #1-5
* Gen¹³ #45-54
* Generation X #1-28
* Ghostbusters: Displaced Aggression #1-4
* Iron Man #1-7 (1996)
* Manifest Eternity #1-6 (Wildstorm, 2006)
* Uncanny X-Men #289-349, 350 (with Steven Seagle)
* Wildcats #1-9 (1997)
* X-Factor #90-95, #106
* X-Men (vol. 2) #6-11, #46-69, #110-113

I don't think so... I pretty much stopped reading superhero comics in the early 90s, when Lee & Liefeld & Larsen & McFarlane & co started dominating the field with their "edgy" art and plots. The last issue of X-Men I read was the last issue Claremont wrote; I'd been getting more and more bored of it during the Jim Lee era, and Claremont quitting was the final straw I needed to quit the X-books. For most of the 90s Vertigo comics were the only current stuff by DC or Marvel I read (except for the occasional non-edgy titles like Starman), and I only came back to superhero comics in the early 00s. So I kinda managed to miss the "dark age" of superhero comics altogether.

Lobdell was only really the "dark age" because he didn't know how to end stories; he liked to pile situation on top of situation and sort of see where the stresses led the story.

Well also he kind of didn't understand how women act, but that's like 80% of comic book writers so I didn't give him as much shit for it as others did.

To Lobdell's credit, some of those are pretty decent.

On the other hand, the rest are some of the boringest emotionally barren comics ever.

Dan waaay OTM on the lack of understanding women.

Also, Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza were pretty much the two main X-Men writers for a while. Um, yeah.

That sort of writing technique is why I've never warmed up to Morrison's JLA as much as to his other superhero stuff... Many of the longer story arcs, like Rock of Ages or World War III, just go like this: stuff happens, other stuff happens, bigger stuff happens, BANG, the end. His shorter JLA stories tend to be structured much better than the long ones.

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Dan waaay OTM on the lack of understanding women.

It was counterbalanced by his not understanding how men act!

Anyway, Nicieza wrote Thunderbolts and Psi-Force, ergo he gets a lifetime pass from me.

(seriously, once you started viewing Lobdell's run as an extended soap opera farce, it became waaaaaaaaaaay more fun; there were also some really great set pieces like the fight between Psylocke and Sabretooth in UXM #328)

Oh god, remember the psylocke/cyclops love triangle bullshit?

I've tried to read some 90s X-Men comics a couple of times, but usually I've been scared away by the awful art. For someone who grew up reading comics drawn by John Byrne, John Romita Jr., Alan Davis, and Walt Simonson, the 90s were a pretty horrible era for superhero art. Also, since the X-books are so continuity-heavy, and I stopped reading them when Claremont left, I had little idea what was happening, or even who the characters were.

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Actually, back in the Silvestri era Psylocke used to be one of my favourite characters, but when she was turned into a bondage bikini ninja for no proper reason except fanservice, that was one of the first times I realized I was getting disillusioned by X-Men.

Actually, back in the Silvestri era Psylocke used to be one of my favourite characters, but when she was turned into a bondage bikini ninja for no proper reason except fanservice

whenever i am tempted to start reading comics properly again, this factoid reminds me i probably shouldn't. i've even enjoyed all the post-brand new day spidey comics i've read, but i know in my heart i could never go back to the x-men again. i stopped reading around the time they went to australia - actually, i think i kept reading a little longer, but i wasn't enjoying it, and didn't really have much of a clue what was going on.

but yeah, ninja pylocke just sounds like the most tragic of wank fantasies made ink.

I remember coming back to the books right when they were resolving the Psylocke/Kwannon plot and being all "... the hell???"

Ninja Psylocke doesn't really bother me at all though, mostly because Betsy at her core always had that type of icy killer personality but never had the physical stature to back it up before that mind switch (which btw happened shortly after my first comics hiatus; I basically missed Inferno through right before the Phalanx Covenant)

wasn't she always doing that ninja thing when she was in her DARK PERSONALITY or am i misremembering my old issues of excalibur?

I don't remember any "dark personality" that would've preceded the ninja era... She was kidnapped by Mojo who gave her new eyes (that were actually cameras so the folks at Mojo's world could enjoy her and the X-Men's adventures as a TV show), but that's the extent of any "darkness" that I can recall. And she certainly didn't have any ninja powers before she was turned into a Japanese bikini babe.

is it true that this ethnic transformation was a power of the Mandarin's ring? if so, did they explore it more, like have him changing tabby cats into siamese cats?

Also, I don't think Psylocke had anything to do with Excalibur before she turned into a ninja (IIRC back then Excalibur still thought the X-Men had all died while fighting the Adversary), so maybe you're remembering some later plot development?

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X-Men Annual #11, published in 1987 (which I have a near-mint copy of in a box in my parents' house, brag brag) shows Psylocke's deepest wish is to become a super warrior; the ninja thing was a reasonable extension of that.

Also, in UXM... 213? Psylocke is attempting to fight off Sabretooth by herself and her ongoing inner monologue is all about how she wished she had more physical powers so she could beat Creed into a pulpy smear, plus when they went to Australia she revamped her costume into body armor so she could get more physical in battles.

Betsy wishing she could beat the shit out of people has been as much a defining characteristic as purple hair; transforming her into a character that could do that was not a stretch nor was it totally out of left field.

Well, TBH I found the wank fantasy part of her new characterization more disturbing than the fact she became a ninja. Though to be honest, I thought the physical combat being her weak point (I remember that annual too) was an imperfection that made her character more interesting, what with her powers being purely mental and all. Kinda like Xavier being bound to a wheelchair. I don't think she was an interesting character as a ninja; with most superheroes being expert martial artists regardless of their powers, I thought it was kinda interesting to see one who wasn't good at fighting, and who knew it.

I guess like Batman, Cap was technically not dead. I'd file the Human Torch under that one, you see him get overwhelmed, but that's about it.

"Hickman's has some cool ideas, and I like the way he writes Reed, but his run has lasted something like 20 issues now, he's introduced new plot elements in almost all of them, and none of those things have been resolved yet. I guess it's possible he has some grand design in his mind that is to be slowly revealed in the next 20+ issues, but at the moment it's kinda boring to read about stuff happening on top of other stuff happening without any clear story arc to it."

That's pretty much it. There has been some cool stuff and quite a bit happenened, but I don't see how it is all going to fit together. It might all work out, but there are more plot points on the stove than you can shake a stick at. One thing left dangling from the beginning, especially if you didn't read the Secret Invasion Mini Hickman did before taking over the regular title, that story took place in the Negative Zone and one of the dangling plot points is that they left Johnny's ex-wife Skrull Lyja in the zone. I figure that is one that will probbaly come back in the long run. I still have no idea how that whole part with Nathaniel Richards is going to tie back into the main story line at all.

I was onto Secret Warriors for the first year or so, but I lost interest after that dumb issue where Phobos breaks into the White House. That one was a total turkey and shouldn't have gotten past an editor. I was picking it off the shelf and just kind of quit cold right there.

Bad thing about anyone that does these mega storylines that never really conclude is that you are pretty much playing with fireworks, as at anytime there could be some fall out or something go funky and then the writer is off the book and it is never finished. There is a thin line between being epic and just having an ongoing soap opera with a story no true beginning, middle and end.

I think that is where Claremont went off the rails, none of the story lines ever ended after a while.

Also, I don't think Psylocke had anything to do with Excalibur

pretty sure she was in excalibur from the first issue, no? back when she was dressed in pink, and had grey hair...

i don't know, it was a long time ago. i thought the mutant massacre was masterful, but after that, the x-verse became so morbid and dull.

hang on, no, she wasn't. misremembering hugely.

I just read last night that Hickman has a 60-issue FF run mapped out.

hm. i really remember some alan davis run of something where psylocke was an evil persona. maybe captain britain?

I think you're thinking of Sat-Yr-9?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/CourtneySatyr9.PNG/220px-CourtneySatyr9.PNG

Right you are! I'm just surprised I remember ANY of this nonsense.

and wasn't Jim Lee to blame for ninjapsylocke?
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Psylocke-Jim-Lee-Trading-Card-620x412.jpg

I guess it's easy to mix up the earlier Captain Britain stories with Excalibur, since they were both drawn by Alan Davis and both featured a lot of the same characters. Initially, Excalibur was pretty much a continuation of Captain Britain, wasn't it? IIRC Claremont had written CB before X-Men, and Betsy Braddock was originally created by him.

Also, wasn't Betsy herself Captain Britain at some point?

I always assumed the ninjafication of Psylocke was Jim Lee's idea, yeah. From what I've gathered, towards the end of the Lee/Claremont run Lee's influence had gotten pretty big, he was essentially plotting the stories, and Claremont just added the dialogue to stuff he'd already drawn. Kinda like how Stan Lee worked with Kirby and Ditko in the 60s.

Hmm, I just read Captain Britain's Wikipedia entry, and looks like Captain Britain himself and the whole CB series was created by Claremont and Herb Trimpe. I didn't know that! Since CB initially only appeared Marvel's UK comics, I assumed he'd been created by Britons.

lol herb trimpe; i never liked his "writing" or "art" even a little bit but he was kind of the Marvel Candide: always around major moments
at least until they chucked him: http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/info/news-herbtrimpefired.asp

^that times piece is really sad tho'

The only Trimpe I could ever tolerate was his Hulk work with a heavy overlay of John Severin. During my time away from comics, I picked up an issue of FF Unlimited that he'd drawn, and it was the most horrifying looking piece of shit -- I thought, "this company desperately needs to die right now."