Major superheroes/villains who died and have stayed dead - are there any?

I don't remember any "dark personality" that would've preceded the ninja era... She was kidnapped by Mojo who gave her new eyes (that were actually cameras so the folks at Mojo's world could enjoy her and the X-Men's adventures as a TV show), but that's the extent of any "darkness" that I can recall. And she certainly didn't have any ninja powers before she was turned into a Japanese bikini babe.

is it true that this ethnic transformation was a power of the Mandarin's ring? if so, did they explore it more, like have him changing tabby cats into siamese cats?

Also, I don't think Psylocke had anything to do with Excalibur before she turned into a ninja (IIRC back then Excalibur still thought the X-Men had all died while fighting the Adversary), so maybe you're remembering some later plot development?

(x-post)

X-Men Annual #11, published in 1987 (which I have a near-mint copy of in a box in my parents' house, brag brag) shows Psylocke's deepest wish is to become a super warrior; the ninja thing was a reasonable extension of that.

Also, in UXM... 213? Psylocke is attempting to fight off Sabretooth by herself and her ongoing inner monologue is all about how she wished she had more physical powers so she could beat Creed into a pulpy smear, plus when they went to Australia she revamped her costume into body armor so she could get more physical in battles.

Betsy wishing she could beat the shit out of people has been as much a defining characteristic as purple hair; transforming her into a character that could do that was not a stretch nor was it totally out of left field.

Well, TBH I found the wank fantasy part of her new characterization more disturbing than the fact she became a ninja. Though to be honest, I thought the physical combat being her weak point (I remember that annual too) was an imperfection that made her character more interesting, what with her powers being purely mental and all. Kinda like Xavier being bound to a wheelchair. I don't think she was an interesting character as a ninja; with most superheroes being expert martial artists regardless of their powers, I thought it was kinda interesting to see one who wasn't good at fighting, and who knew it.

I guess like Batman, Cap was technically not dead. I'd file the Human Torch under that one, you see him get overwhelmed, but that's about it.

"Hickman's has some cool ideas, and I like the way he writes Reed, but his run has lasted something like 20 issues now, he's introduced new plot elements in almost all of them, and none of those things have been resolved yet. I guess it's possible he has some grand design in his mind that is to be slowly revealed in the next 20+ issues, but at the moment it's kinda boring to read about stuff happening on top of other stuff happening without any clear story arc to it."

That's pretty much it. There has been some cool stuff and quite a bit happenened, but I don't see how it is all going to fit together. It might all work out, but there are more plot points on the stove than you can shake a stick at. One thing left dangling from the beginning, especially if you didn't read the Secret Invasion Mini Hickman did before taking over the regular title, that story took place in the Negative Zone and one of the dangling plot points is that they left Johnny's ex-wife Skrull Lyja in the zone. I figure that is one that will probbaly come back in the long run. I still have no idea how that whole part with Nathaniel Richards is going to tie back into the main story line at all.

I was onto Secret Warriors for the first year or so, but I lost interest after that dumb issue where Phobos breaks into the White House. That one was a total turkey and shouldn't have gotten past an editor. I was picking it off the shelf and just kind of quit cold right there.

Bad thing about anyone that does these mega storylines that never really conclude is that you are pretty much playing with fireworks, as at anytime there could be some fall out or something go funky and then the writer is off the book and it is never finished. There is a thin line between being epic and just having an ongoing soap opera with a story no true beginning, middle and end.

I think that is where Claremont went off the rails, none of the story lines ever ended after a while.

Also, I don't think Psylocke had anything to do with Excalibur

pretty sure she was in excalibur from the first issue, no? back when she was dressed in pink, and had grey hair...

i don't know, it was a long time ago. i thought the mutant massacre was masterful, but after that, the x-verse became so morbid and dull.

hang on, no, she wasn't. misremembering hugely.

I just read last night that Hickman has a 60-issue FF run mapped out.

hm. i really remember some alan davis run of something where psylocke was an evil persona. maybe captain britain?

I think you're thinking of Sat-Yr-9?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/CourtneySatyr9.PNG/220px-CourtneySatyr9.PNG

Right you are! I'm just surprised I remember ANY of this nonsense.

and wasn't Jim Lee to blame for ninjapsylocke?
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Psylocke-Jim-Lee-Trading-Card-620x412.jpg

I guess it's easy to mix up the earlier Captain Britain stories with Excalibur, since they were both drawn by Alan Davis and both featured a lot of the same characters. Initially, Excalibur was pretty much a continuation of Captain Britain, wasn't it? IIRC Claremont had written CB before X-Men, and Betsy Braddock was originally created by him.

Also, wasn't Betsy herself Captain Britain at some point?

I always assumed the ninjafication of Psylocke was Jim Lee's idea, yeah. From what I've gathered, towards the end of the Lee/Claremont run Lee's influence had gotten pretty big, he was essentially plotting the stories, and Claremont just added the dialogue to stuff he'd already drawn. Kinda like how Stan Lee worked with Kirby and Ditko in the 60s.

Hmm, I just read Captain Britain's Wikipedia entry, and looks like Captain Britain himself and the whole CB series was created by Claremont and Herb Trimpe. I didn't know that! Since CB initially only appeared Marvel's UK comics, I assumed he'd been created by Britons.

lol herb trimpe; i never liked his "writing" or "art" even a little bit but he was kind of the Marvel Candide: always around major moments
at least until they chucked him: http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/info/news-herbtrimpefired.asp

^that times piece is really sad tho'

The only Trimpe I could ever tolerate was his Hulk work with a heavy overlay of John Severin. During my time away from comics, I picked up an issue of FF Unlimited that he'd drawn, and it was the most horrifying looking piece of shit -- I thought, "this company desperately needs to die right now."

claremont and trimpe were chosen to do captain britain 'cos they both had brit connections - claremont was born in england, and trimpe lived in the uk for a while in the early 1970s.

don't think trimpe did any writing, strictly a penciller irrc. he was one of those marvel vets who were pretty much told to draw like rob liefield in the 90s, and yeah the results were supremely hideous. don't mind his early work on the hulk even prior to john severin giving him the once-over, tho the trimpe/severin hulks are def his career highpoint (some gd roy thomas stories, too.)

John Severin could do no wrong, imho. Improved every book he ever touched.

Trimpe Hulk is great.

During my time away from comics, I picked up an issue of FF Unlimited that he'd drawn, and it was the most horrifying looking piece of shit -- I thought, "this company desperately needs to die right now."

ahahhahaha YES - - - I remember being reallllly underwhelmed by the art in FF Unlimited #2, the one with the Inhuman royal heir...bluuugh.

don't think trimpe did any writing

I'm pretty sure he both wrote and drew some issues of G.I. Joe Special Missions. Don't know about anything else.

I haven't been reading Fantastic Four for a while, but apparently Torch is back... So what does that leave us with? Wasp is still dead, I think. Was Elongated Man resurrected with the DC reboot?

Poor Ralph seems dead or never to have existed as far as I can tell.

Torch never died at all.

He totally died, several times! And then got regenerated. Credit to Hickman for a clever solution, though it wasn't entirely original. (Sir Richard Burton's escape-by-repeated-suicide method in the Riverworld books comes to mind.)

THE FRANCHISE CANNOT DIE. THE FRANCHISE IS IMMORTAL. LONG LIVE THE NEW FLESH.

I forgot the bug resurrection. My bad. For some reason in my head he was just captured.

I'm about a year behind on X-stuff, but I think Nightcrawler's still dead? Although Cable's back already, so I wouldn't say that definitively.

They killed Nightcrawler, then pulled in the AoA version of him to add to X-Force

Huh. Lame. If they really just wanted to half-heartedly fill the fuzzy blue elf void, isn't Nocturne still floating around out there somewhere?

I think she was last seen off with the Exiles? dunno tho

didn't even know nightcrawler was dead

yeah, he died saving Hope Summers' life from a super Sentinel

I would've spoiler-proofed that revelation if not for the fact that it happened a couple of years ago, which means we're no more than a couple of years from it being reversed like every X-death which proceeded it.

wait, Banshee is still dead

there's a running grim joke about it in X-Factor that pops up every now and then

I'll give 'em that. And Thunderbird. And I was gonna say Maggott, but I forgot that he was finally resurrected after years of incessant fan outrage.

they brought Thunderbird back for Necrosha briefly but he's gone again (actually I can't remember if Banshee came back for that, too) (apparently he did)

I want a villain to resurrect a fan favorite character only to disintegrate them immediately to show what a badass he/she is.

That was kinda the deal with the aforementioned Necrosha. Only a couple of the slew of resurrected characters made it out alive.

who the hell is hope summers?

scott's kid with jean?

Hope is the first mutant born after the "no more mutants" crap. She's rescued by Cable and brought up in the future by him. She takes his last name as her own.

oh hey, can someone update me on kitty pryde? last i checked she was unable to phase back into existence (bc of the bullet incident). is that still true? has she been in any badass comics i should read since she got back to earth?

For Kitty I would read the Wolverine and the X-Men comics. She's a teacher at the new institute. And she's back to normal Kitty now. I think. But I don't know how.

man i'm so far out of the loop, don't know what anyone's talking about anymore
i stopped after gmoz

the marvel online pass is catching me up.

you can find out how her powers went back to normal on Wikipedia; I won't spoil since EZ is currently reading