ILX Book Club - Jennifer Egan: A Visit from the Goon Squad

xposts --

I don't really feel like there are a basic human set of desires which it isn't the author's job to make comprehensible: so I distrust the argument from eating and drinking, etc.: it's ____-centric, I can think of at least two things to fill in that gap without thinking too hard

I think, also, that there's a clue in the word 'kleptomaniac', which we're using, and which I think is used in the book: a kleptomaniac Wants To Steal Things. In much the same way, if we're presented with an 'alcoholic', we will accept that they Want To Drink Things. similar with 'anorexic', say. (And it's fairly obviously wrong to say 'well, I have an automatic empathy with alcoholics because I fancied a pint after work yesterday', or with anorexics because I want my suit to fit better.)

Which we can imply causative things for, if we want. We can write a novel in which Jim Broadface is an alcoholic because, say, his mother beat him and his husband left him, or in which Sally Okayface is anorexic because of women's magazines and daytime television. But, I mean, these are pretty boring novels, which I'm writing; and I don't think that they're actually doing anything to explain what's wrong or interesting about Jim and Sally. Which, anyway, is what it feels like you want done with Sasha: either that you can't understand that someone's wiring might just make them Want To Steal Things, in which case, well, that's kind of your problem? or that you want the novel to supply that, ah, Sasha wants to steal things because (x).

xp

Yeah I was trying to open up my thoughts about character. I know there are people who would argue that it is central to The Novel. Disputing about how well developed a character is feels like primarily a question of taste, whereas the question of how important that development is is more a question of what we want a novel to be.

also, yup:

I am going to take a guess that the kleptomania business will turn out not to be that important in the book, and 300pp later the reader will have been bombarded by lots of other things, so that issues around kleptomania will not seem important.

ding ding -- also, there's at least three reductive versions of (x) you could go for, if you wanted, which is part of why i don't like the book so much

i think i dislike the use of "cause (x)" in fiction because it feels like a fictional account of human consciousness, for me it doesn't reflect the reality of our interactions with other people

or with ourselves, either. many people with, for example, addictions have stories that they tell themselves about how the addiction came to be, but they aren't reliable judges imo

In this situation, I think that some onus is on the author to make the character's action comprehensible to the reader. Unlike other readers, I don't really feel that the author has yet succeeded in that, at this early stage in the book.

I think she deliberately leaves some things incomprehensible, or comprehensible to some readers and less to others. I can't really identify with kleptomania and suspect that a lot of readers can't. At least part of the book is about impulses that are difficult to understand. The kleptomania stuff isn't that important over the course of the novel, although you could say it's one of many symptoms.

My favorite chapter, and I don't see it mentioned much in reviews curiously: the uncle visiting Sasha in Italy. It reminded me of James' The Ambassadors yet contained so much unsaid.

This is OTM. As a book it's full of gaps, temporal gaps but also gaps in how the characters understand one another (and how we understand them).

Also "pop novel" is an excellent description.

I had fun reading it. I am mystified as to why it won the Pulitzer.

I had similar feelings to Pinefox about the kleptomania at the start of the book, but Matt is right that it isn't important from the perspective of the novel as a whole - and also, I think, in his explanation why. Peoples' motives are often inexplicable, sometimes even to themselves, and that's one of the realities the novel reflects. Too much of that kind of stuff would make the novel frustrating and dull but Egan doesn't over-indulge.

Just read the magazine profile chapter over lunch, which seemed to confirm my feelings about pastiche - felt like a pale imitation of DFW/Eggers-y manically footnoted journalism, though obviously taken to certain gonzo extremes. And then the next chapter I've just started feels like an exercise in second-person narrative, like an early Lorrie Moore story. I can admire Egan's versatility, but it's not really involving me or moving me, or really even impressing me on simple prose level. I didn't particularly like FREEDOM, but it feels like a more serious or significant book than AVftGS, so far.

in retrospect i really really hated "freedom" but there's probably a better thread for me to post about that

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. The novel didn't suck me in right away. And I did a lot of eye-rolling with all of the 'pop' elements. I have a really hard time with band references in novels ... not sure why ... maybe it just feels like shorthand for characterization, or, like the author is trying to convince you that she is cool ... or that the book is trying too hard to appeal to people who want to consume fiction that reaffirms their own self-image of a person of xyz tastes.

But then, last night, I ended up reading 100ish pages pretty late at night when I should have been sleeping. The device of switching focus to different characters is done really well and creates a unique reading experience. So I end up with thoughts like: "yeah, I was wondering what happened to that person" and "I hope I can get see more of that guy" etc.

The pop references in this are generally less cringeworthy than those in Freedom (which are astonishingly cringeworthy, especially the Bright Eyes scene).

I never knew 'The Invisible Circus' was made into a movie!

yeah i thought the band stuff in AVFTGS was pulled off better than that kind of stuff usually is

I don't know much about the kind of bands Egan writes about so I'm liable to miss awkwardnesses that might grate on others. All the same, I thought the "music used to be real but now it's all overproduced, over-commercialised, manufactured pap" theme running through the novel was pretty silly. It was a point of view mainly identified with Bennie but it was obvious Egan endorsed it (confirmed in an interview I saw). Egan seems too intelligent to fall for this kind of guff. It didn't ruin the book for me but it was a definite weakness.

All the same, I thought the "music used to be real but now it's all overproduced, over-commercialised, manufactured pap" theme running through the novel was pretty silly.

Definitely a theme in punk and post-punk era in SF.

Those remarks fit the characters who utter them; I saw no evidence that the book endorses those views, especially when you realize the characters themselves are pathetic.

They're kids, ffs!

My gf passed me this earlier this year. Egan is a little older than we are but the SF parts were eerie in their versimilitude.

A theme for punks everywhere of course, but I'm talking about a much later nostalgia for that the punk period itself (and earlier) compared with the more recent past. I think it's absolutely fine to have a middle-aged music producer think music has gone to the dogs - most of them probably do - but it's Egan's job as an intelligent observer to have some perspective on why his judgement might be suspect. I'm wary of spoilers for folk still in the early stages of the book, but this all feeds through into Scott's concert, easily the silliest thing in the novel.

Alfred, Egan made it very clear in a tv interview that she agreed with Bennie's views about music being less "real" now. Although I think it's clear there in the book as well.

i think i dislike the use of "cause (x)" in fiction because it feels like a fictional account of human consciousness, for me it doesn't reflect the reality of our interactions with other people
― bell hops (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 4 May 2011

I cheerfully and wholeheartedly agree with your implicit call for an art or fiction which is realistic in giving us a depiction of the subtlety, contingency and fascination of real people and real life. I have made this call for years and years, not that I have ever expected anyone to answer it.

I think your critique of 'cause x' is something of a straw target shoot, as it ought to be possible to imagine kinds of determination and causality that are not crude or reductive. (It must be, because real life is presumably dominated by all kinds of determination.)

Unlike you, perhaps, I am not sure that I found quite this subtle, realistic depiction of real life, etc, in the first chapter of the novel.

On the next theme, re music and sound, I also noticed this Benny or Bennie character saying that everything had been ruined by being too digitally precise. I found this line asinine, if that's the right word. As someone who has tried, and failed, to record things, a bit of precision would not come amiss. I am not that surprised to hear that Egan perhaps agrees with him, though of course he is only a fictional character. Of course, I should admit that 'recording techniques are worse' and 'modern music is worse' are two somewhat different claims.

but it's Egan's job as an intelligent observer to have some perspective on why his judgement might be suspect.

No it's not! Could a lecherous, middle-aged man in the music industry have plausibly said something along those lines at the time and a teenage girl believe him or at least defer to his better judgment? Absolutely! I was going to concerts at the Mabuhay, the On Broadway and the Farm and whatnot in the early 80's and it reads quite true to me.

>>> a bit of precision would not come amiss <<<

I'm afraid I was accidentally conflating two different things here:

1. the chance to record anything successfully without things going wrong would not come amiss -- a feeling specific to me, not really relevant to the novel; after all the recording artists probably don't have such problems and have people to make things OK for them

2. precision is good, full stop, in recording -- this is the real point that is relevant to the novel and makes B's thought seem vapid to me, if I am not misremembering it.

ch 2 I thought not great, but not terrible. It reminded me a bit of The Sopranos, a programme I do not like, but without the criminal dimension that is the reason I don't like it.

I wonder slightly if this is a novel where characters have their gimmicks: the kleptomaniac, the bloke who has lost his lust. But, I should admit that the Bennie character is a bit more fully drawn than that. JE seems to want to take this character very seriously.

ch 3 seems to be about people's cool youth. Here I have a standard problem, which is roughly, envy and exclusion, because people in fictional narratives always seem able to have cool youths in a way that was never offered to me. This makes me resentful and / or sad. But then, also, I don't generally much like punk rock, so I wouldn't really want to stand around hearing it like these cool youths do.

So far I agree with Stevie's view that the novel is not especially distinguished at the level of prose. Very little writing as such has impressed me so far. This is a bit surprising given the novel's reputation, if I can say that it has one already. But, I understand that there are other ways for a story to be good. Maybe the relative plainness is delberate or will stop.

I think the pop references are more cringeworthy than the pop references in Freedom, or at least they make you feel sad, because you are old now, whereas in Freedom you are believably bratty and young.

I think JE does female hopeful sad dissolution best.

Egan actually created a soundtrack with a song for each chapter:

http://knopf.knopfdoubleday.com/2010/07/08/soundtrack-to-a-visit-from-the-goon-squad/

(If you're a music snob, you might not want to check it out.)

I just finished the book. Now I'm going to crawl back into my hole.

More thoughts later, but a few notes, having just finished it:

Really enjoyed it, but slightly surprised at the sheer scale of the love for it.

Blurb was totally misleading, making me think it would be all about Sasha and Bennie, so it took me a while to realise that the chapters about other people were not interludes (not Egan's fault, obviously)

Powerpoint bit worked well, despite my reservations about gimmicky nature of same

Every review I've read made it seem as though it was about the music industry, which it really wasn't

Changing Earth's orbit for global warming reasons? There's no fucking way this could be done, what the fuck, that's a mad idea, so out of place, argh

Alfred, Egan made it very clear in a tv interview that she agreed with Bennie's views about music being less "real" now.

Not surprised, but I wipe the floor with authorial intention.

ch 3 seems to be about people's cool youth. Here I have a standard problem, which is roughly, envy and exclusion,

I get sort of the opposite feeling--as someone with a deeply uncool youth, I'm deeply envious when I read pieces like this chapter (though sometimes relieved at what I escaped), and the only way I'll ever experience things like that is fictionally, so bring it on, as long as it convinces, which this chapter really did

The final Scotty concert really didn't work, though, in that world-altering musical events like this never seem to convince in fiction. And how do these "pointers" work, anyway? If babies are downloading stuff, presumably their parents are paying for it, otherwise where's the money coming from that fuels the market that the producers are so keen to get into? Why are they choosing to pay for stuff on the basis of semi-random reflexive movements?

Has Jennifer Egan's writing changed much since The Invisible Circus? Because I thought that book was a more literary Sweet Valley High. In a bad way.

her writing has matured, but you probably still wouldn't like her. can i just say that that kind of dismissal of egan really irks me?

ugh i read some review of AVftGS squad on av club or somewhere, and the reviewer referred to her earlier work as 'chick lit'. and also recommended that it would be a good idea to publish her non-chick lit stuff under a pseudonym so ppl aren't put off reading it.

Blimey. I no way does what I've read of her (this and some stories) make me think "chick-lit".

it was actually a review of the keep: http://www.avclub.com/articles/jennifer-egan-the-keep,3817/

"Jennifer Egan should adopt a nom de plume—"J. Egan" would do quite well. An unfortunate side effect of the popularity of chick lit and poetic, memoir-ish "women's novels" is that a woman's name on the cover creates a certain expectation about what's inside. "

ugh i read some review of AVftGS squad on av club or somewhere, and the reviewer referred to her earlier work as 'chick lit'. and also recommended that it would be a good idea to publish her non-chick lit stuff under a pseudonym so ppl aren't put off reading it.

― just1n3, Wednesday, May 4, 2011 11:41 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is basically what i'm getting at. i have read "chick lit" and i'm not trying to get into a whole thing about the ghettoization of that genre but i can only figure egan's work as chick lit if writing about women automatically means chick lit, which pisses me off.

xp i guess it's not just writing about women but also being a woman. god. look at me is also about a model, which i guess is a double-strike against it.

you know what that review is about, too: The Keep was her first novel where most of it is told from a man's pov.

after 'visit' 'look @ me' is the one i like best. its... not really chick-lit.

i love look at me. i have gotten in so many arguments where i recommend that book to people and tell them what it's about, and they're like "so, it's about a model? ..."

yeah i have absolutely no problem with chick-lit either and read tons of the stuff - i hate that it is used to refer to works that reviewers want to pan bc of content but can't bc they're actually good and well-written. and also: i def didn't feel that look at me or invisible circus or emerald city fell into the 'chick-lit' category by those standards.

just1n3 otm

" An unfortunate side effect of the popularity of chick lit and poetic, memoir-ish "women's novels" is that a woman's name on the cover creates a certain expectation about what's inside. "

! what is wrong w/ this person

i hate to be all thread police, but can we not have spoilers for bits we're not required to have read yet?

Finished this last night. Will hold off saying anything particularly spoilery until next week, but offhand I can't recall a more disappointing final chapter to a novel.

Also finally read the LRB review - http://www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n07/pankaj-mishra/modernitys-undoing I had been saving up until now. And that is even more disappointing than the book! The kind of generic postmod novel criticism 101 undergrads were writing back in my American Lit classes over 20 years ago!

Uh-oh !!!

Was this the kind of thing that was encouraged by the dim-witted Christopher Bigsby?

whenever i see that kind of criticism of criticism, stevie t, i wonder: gosh, did undergraduates really get that much more stupid in the intervening fifty years? that much less able to turn out a sentence?

ffhand I can't recall a more disappointing final chapter to a novel.

I'm not thrilled with it either.

I probably made my feelings about this book known here years ago.

What I’ll say in its favor: the stuff about “what future generations might be like” has stayed with me, it made an impression.

Anyone read the Candy House?

Pauses in songs seems like a thread for ILM. A Faulty Chromosome has a good example. I think they were from Texas and existed when myspace existed. I think there is still a case for music from the suburbs. Does anyone have an equivalent for Croyden in the United States? Could it be compared to Brooklyn?

Do you mean the UK borough of Croydon?

It's somewhat comparable to Brooklyn but realistically Brooklyn might be better compared to the whole of South or South-East London.

Yes. Are any of the subjects in the Michael Apted 7 up series from SE London? It seems like a place where there would be enthusiasm for English breakfasts with toast racks and crumb catchers/sweepers as well as football clubs.

It turns out that A Faulty Chromosome are originally from Los Angeles, the original suburb (based on some notion of cars and sprawl).

The Candy House, so far, is a better book.

I must read it!

books. lots of books.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/interactive/2023/jennifer-egan-home-library/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f005