What's the future of the music industry?

I'm quite happy playing music, and occasionally promoting gigs, for my own, and friends' pleasure. Helped by, as Kate(?) says above, a pretty ok music scene here. But then I get mails from only-very-slightly-more-popular bands demanding guarantees in the mid-hundreds and think, are we doing ourselves an injustice - by being happy to play for nowt, for fun, are we shooting ourselves in the collective feet?

Or are the [BAND NAME REDACTED] just a pair of greedy fuckers?

>Or are the [BAND NAME REDACTED]

My wife just went through a weird booking experience with a benefit she's help run for years. Someone higher up in her organization really, really wanted her to get a particular local band, and for several months, the band had agreed to play. By the time it came to arrange the show, they explained that they'd just let go of the day jobs, and they'd need to be paid. My wife thought it was implicit that the show was a *benefit*, looked for alternatives, but she was then informed to book them at all costs. Then they mentioned that they also needed a certain sound guy. And so the price rose to the mid-hundreds, which they said was standard for them. Of course, looking at their schedule, it's places like The Book Nook, Fredericksburg.

Now, if you play socially-acceptable music, its really nice to get a city parks gig an get a reasonable payout and such. But I think bilking a not profit's benefit, especially when it's the bake sale that makes the cash for the organization, is pretty darn gauche.

I strongly dislike the idea that touring is the only way for a musician to make money. Many of my favourite albums were by bands who didn't tour at all, and preferred to perfect their work in the studio rather than to travel around the world playing inferior versions for an audience. Late career Beatles, Scritti Politti, 10cc, Prefab Sprout, mid-to-late career 10cc. All brilliant, none of them bothering to play their material live.

many of my favourite books were by dudes who got paid by wealthy noblemen to sit around on their arses writing books

bendy that story is ridiculous! Nobody charges for doing benefit gigs, that's the whole point!

Was drinking with an inudstry type friend of mine last night and he was saying that the main reason there are so many UK electronic/laptop types being hyped right now is that the labels have cottoned on that, compared to bands, they're very cheap and high-margin (produce and record themselves, easy and cheap to fly round everywhere on tour, don't have to bother with roadies and tour managers etc). Which was kinda 'durr' but I hadn't actually thought about it like that.

I used to think bands did Glastonbury for free as well.

xpost yeah, and also why MarkESmith used to slag off Billy Bragg was because he was cheaper (costs much reduced, therefore fee = half the price but bigger profit for the artist)

trying to work out who tom's BAND NAME REDACTED are, but it's safe to say they're probly greedy fuckers

Put it into the anagram server, see what happens.

I'll tell you after the weekend ;-)

the main reason there are so many UK electronic/laptop types being hyped right now is that the labels have cottoned on that, compared to bands, they're very cheap and high-margin

Also why rappers are so popular with labels and have been promoted heavily - recording vocals anywhere is cheap, and producers tend to be happy to work for points rather than cash. I.e. the music industry has switched to a low cost, low risk (and much lower margin) model. So, a big boost in label support for genres that can be made cheaply.

Not dissimilar to post-war touring costs bringing down the big bands, and bop combos coming to the fore. Now the bop combos are too expensive.

And how records became cheaper than seeing/putting on live bands....

xpost

There was also the development of decent amplification and electric instrumentation too, so you didn't need 10 horns or 8 trumpets to make an almighty racket.

good points! I find the whole topic of economics driving aesthetics fascinating.

It does sort of bum me out that DJing has become the most lucrative stream of income for lots of acts. I mean, that ain't working.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcREZ-Gx-G3MtXM80zTQOSyAgK-rgf4utC5O7FsuVj1UwVoRI56Cmw

If bands want to make more money playing than DJing they should try making music that people like to dance to innit

Yeah, like AC/DC! [/ xuckk]

I think DJing (as much as I like a good DJ set) is one step up from making a personal appearance at a shop opening. Not on an aesthetic level, just on a practical level.

Not to mention most musicians aren't good DJs. Competent maybe, but most lack the ability to 'read the crowd', or are simply not passionate enough about DJing.

DJing and Live concerts are both just secondhand work by musicians, who first and foremost are good at making music. Thus, it is important to find good ways to get paid for a songwriter, arranger or for putting together a good record in the studio. I feel that streaming may work to some extent, but only if they secure that all streaming customers do actually pay for the streams. I fully support Spotify's downgrading of their free content, and I hope they go even further, forcing their customers to pay. Those who have made recorded music deserve to get paid for it.

The idea that playing live is of secondary importance to musicians is the most hilariously batshit Geirism in a while.

Where do you get this myth that live renditions are inferior versions? have you never seen a great gig that's miles better than the record?

yeah even 10cc put out a double live album.

oh sorry matt, xp of course!

Um. As much as I hate being seen to be in agreement with Geir, this idea isn't completely batshit.

It really depends on the musician. Being that "musician" has taken on a double meaning both "composer" and "performer" in a way that they were not always synonymous.

There are many people who we think of as "musicians" who are far more comfortable with the composing aspect than the performing. This does not mean *all* musicians should solely be composers, but it's equally batshit as a Geirism to think that there are no musicians who are not more comfortable with a composer role than a performer.

The idea that "gigs are where the artist gets paid" is only true when the band can command a decent fee. Back whenever, groups used to do tours that would not recoup the cost, purely on the basis that the increased record sales would make up for it. Of course, the more the idea that gigs = money, the more ways to take the money off the artist will get created by the managers, promoters, rig-hires, t-shirt sellers, etc...

Karen otm -- and i think even more nowadays, considering the costs of recording and producing technology are so cheap and easy - like you can sit in your bedroom and make an album all by yourself - there are more younger musicians that don't think about playing live as the primary goal.

xxxp But what is this thinning-the-herd? What a nasty piece of bullshit. I'd hate to see you at a pass-the-hat sort of gig. "Nothing from me, thanks, it's for your own good, I'm thinning the herd." Are you serious? If you aren't, I apologize, but like I don't even know where to start. A third to half of the new bands that play, say, ACL, that is, the ones who can buy gear, record and press records, they are the vanity projects of the independently wealthy. Many bands I love fall into this category, but it doesn't exactly represent a diverse cultural landscape. "Thinning the herd" means you'll be getting more of JD & The Straight Shot.

have you never seen a great gig that's miles better than the record?

very often vice versa!

(kate otm.)

There are many people who we think of as "musicians" who are far more comfortable with the composing aspect than the performing. This does not mean *all* musicians should solely be composers, but it's equally batshit as a Geirism to think that there are no musicians who are not more comfortable with a composer role than a performer.

That's obviously true as well, but Geir was putting the primacy of studio music ahead of all else, which is a very Geir thing to do, and of course is wrong.

Also there are more musicians in the world who aren't composers than vice-versa. Way more.

But what is this thinning-the-herd? What a nasty piece of bullshit. I'd hate to see you at a pass-the-hat sort of gig. "Nothing from me, thanks, it's for your own good, I'm thinning the herd." Are you serious? If you aren't, I apologize, but like I don't even know where to start.

1. you have no idea who i am or what my background is
2. i'm mostly joking

But the thing is, the whole thrust of this thread and all this music industry handwringing is that it's the composing musicians who are getting the bitter end of the shaft in the current climate.

Performing musicians who don't compose, their ways of making a living really have not been affected by the digital revolution. We are, in this thread, already having a conversation about the ones who compose, because they're the ones hurt by the shakeup.

@ Sarah I don't seek to be antagonistic in asking this, at all at all, but why does my post have any bearing on your background? (And I figured you were mostly joking)

I'll tell you after the weekend ;-)

i checked the myspace now i'm not at work. definitely voting greedy fuckers. would've liked to've seen u guys this weekend, but there's no way i'll be getting a hall pass tomorrow so next time hopefully :(

Owen - because the part of me that isn't joking was frustrated by seeing way too many musicians and bands wanting paying gigs and touring through -- too many for the physical reality of the city i live in, of the number of potential paying audience members -- and a lot of them were fairly mediocre.

But the thing is, the whole thrust of this thread and all this music industry handwringing is that it's the composing musicians who are getting the bitter end of the shaft in the current climate.

Performing musicians who don't compose, their ways of making a living really have not been affected by the digital revolution. We are, in this thread, already having a conversation about the ones who compose, because they're the ones hurt by the shakeup.

Not entirely - surely studio musicians who don't compose are also being hit, given lower recording budgets and all that? But yeah, not the central thrust of the argument. Geir's assertion, that playing live is of secondary importance to bands who also record and release music, is nonsense in many cases.

have you never seen a great gig that's miles better than the record?

I want my music to sound absolutely perfect, with no rough edes, no wrong notes, no mistakes of any kind, everything purely perfect, perfect and utter perfect. The smoother the better.

From that criteria. No, I haven't. Studio is always better than live.

Yeah it's already been pointed out that record companies are interested in acts with low overheads, so that means, like, no horn section, for instance.

xpost

As for musicians who don't compose, they aren't real musicians. The songwriter is the one and only genius, and first and foremost it is important to find ways for the songwriter to get paid. Now that works somewhat in terms of live performance too, because all serious arrangers of live concerts will make sure to report to ASCAP or whatever what is being played, and the composers get their fair share. It is more about the superior versions (which IMO are always the studio ones, without exceptions) deserving more pay than the inferior ones.

@ Karen, the major mitigating factor in keeping good music scenes in Toronto and Montreal, as opposed to many cities in the States, is of course our highly controversial public health care program.

Grants exist, but mostly to stimulate a "culture industry"; that is, most of the money goes to stimulating the careers of established bands/labels. Sell 10K in Canada, get tour support. It actually works in a weirdly Reaganomics fashion.

The Polyphonic Spree is officially a thing of the past.

Love the idea of Geir going up to a world-class soprano or a virtuoso violinist and telling them they aren't real musicians.

As for musicians who don't compose, they aren't real musicians. The songwriter is the one and only genius,

OK, nonesense time,.

Two words: Irving Berlin.

I want my music to sound absolutely perfect, with no rough edes, no wrong notes, no mistakes of any kind, everything purely perfect, perfect and utter perfect. The smoother the better.

Volume Reference Tone - the greatest piece of music in human history.

yeah even 10cc put out a double live album.

It sounds crap though. 10cc sounded really horrible live, not surprising, given the nature of their music, which was of course impossible to reproduce live.

My favourite single of all time is "Bohemian Rhapsody". Now, Queen did perform that song live, but the best bits (the opera/choir bits obviously) were all on tape.

@ Sarah in fact, you are right on the money. My booking agent even uses words like "Rocktober" to describe that period of time where every band in the world goes on tour all at the same time.

Matt DC - It's been a decade since I was a proper session player and nearly 5 years since I was around jobbing musicians but - my memory is that being a session player, the biggest source of income was not actually studio jobs, but those things you tend not to think of - playing backup in touring bands, wedding/covers bands, musicals (for someone in the musicians union, this can be great work), Butlins/cruise ships and weird things like that. (I once knew someone who would go and play drums on cruise ships for 6 months of the year to support coming back to NYC and playing in his indie rock band the other half.)

True, the whole thing of one-dude laptop acts has cut down on the number of people who have to rent-a-rhythm-section for a touring band, but studio work was never the number one income source really.

It would be interesting to see how smaller to medium size recording studios have fared, because this is somewhere I imagine the budget taking the biggest hit, since people can record so easily in their own homes. 4-track to small studio was a massive step up, but laptop to small studio is a step down in sound quality.