What's the future of the music industry?

Love the idea of Geir going up to a world-class soprano or a virtuoso violinist and telling them they aren't real musicians.

Mozart, Beethoven, Handel and Bach are all fondly remembered today, whereas most of the virtuoso musicians that originally performed them are not at all remembered. It took until Paganini for a virtuoso instrumentalist to become a true historical legend, and that may have helped by the fact that he also did some composition himself.

One important point, of course, is that with today's technology, you don't need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to record a great sounding album. Thus, the need for imcome for studio musicians is a bit less, but I still reckon it's important that the leading studio acts out there to be able to make a living from their music, just like 10cc, Supertramp and Prefab Sprout, Scritti Politti did (this in spite of the latter two never quite putting the hitlists on fire)

the major mitigating factor in keeping good music scenes in Toronto and Montreal, as opposed to many cities in the States, is of course our highly controversial public health care program.

Why doesn't this translate in the UK, then?

You don't have to sell 10k to get a music grant, do you? Or at least, this surely wasn't the case 10 years ago. Heck, I've toured on a Canadian music grant and there was no way that band sold 10k!

"Studio musicians" in this case meaning musicians who concentrate on composing and arranging great music in the studio - not session men.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WCkadc9qOx8/TaJDtUuAH3I/AAAAAAAAGEk/2B5mig98eCM/s1600/void.jpg

The impression here in Norway is that musicians who sell 50.000 copies of their albums will have a rather OK income from that. They don't get wealthy, but they get as much pay as the average craftsman does. Only the most popular albums sell 50.000 here, but in the US or Canadian market, even rather underground acts should be able to shift 50.000 copies.

It's like saying Lewis Hamilton isn't a racing driver because he didn't design the ford cortina.

@ Karen. There are several granting institutions and they all work differently. The one that I've found is the most lucrative, is called Radio Starmaker, and yes, if you are a pop act, you have to sell 10K in Canada to qualify. (If you're a folk act, or "electronica" act, I believe the bracket is much lower.)

going back to what you were saying, Owen, about friend rock -- like the mediocrity was only so relevant (it being subjective, esp. when the musician/band in question was gonna be an opener or support act) -- the thing that was most frustrating was the bands/musicians that didn't have local connections. It felt like they were operating on the assumption that because they were musicians that people would inherently want to see them play. Like several dozen people are gonna say to themselves, "Oh wow! I totally want to pay $6 to see some guys i don't know, that none of my friends know or have even heard of, play guitars while i drink a few beers!"

noodle otm

It's like saying Lewis Hamilton isn't a racing driver because he didn't design the ford cortina.

For me, this is about a quality difference between actually creating art and just performing other people's art. Songwriters are artists, whereas instrumentalists/vocalists/whatever are just professionals.

As for the Irving Berlin example, Irving Berlin was like Leonardo Da Vinci painting the Mona Lisa painting, while Bing Crosby was the guy printing copies of Da Vinci's original work. The latter is obviously a craftsman, with education in printing and whatever, but Irvin Berlin is the one and only artist, in terms of the guy who actually creates the art.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h279/juicyfrt/geirbot.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4pzR6lrHa8Y/TdkECRVioNI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/0DKR045rMZc/s1600/Olivier.jpg

(This, of course, provides that the artist writing the songs actually wants to create art, and not just construct something that will sell - which is why Gershwin was superior to Berlin and Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson are superior to Steinberg and Kelly.)

yeah, but he couldn't play the piano for toffee...

Basically, if a top soprano isn't a musician, and Irving isn't either, than who is? Only people who can play and compose?

That's a good point, Sarah. There's a hilarious artist space in Toronto that is often mistaken for an after-hours and you consistently see confused people looking for cheap booze trying to parse whatever performance art thing is going on. But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

speaking of which, there's this guy that comments on every article in the regional newspaper that's about my city, and is obsessed with the unfairness of parking enforcement. Geir reminds me of that guy.

Are we getting Geir'd right now?

Basically, if a top soprano isn't a musician, and Irving isn't either, than who is? Only people who can play and compose?

It is OK for me to say that, OK, a soprano is a musician. But only the composer can possibly be an artistic genius.

"only working class people can be racist"

But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

yeah, exactly -- or know a couple other local bands that have friends that will come see them play.

BLimey, Geir changed his mind there.

i shd stick at the jpeg but i just had a thought. all artists are influenced by others, many composers going so far as to incorporate folk tunes and other musics directly into their own work. so when Messaien orchestrates bird song, is he stealing off a bird who is the authentic artist there? or are Zeppelin mere Willy Dixon plagiarists? is there ultimately like only one artist right back at the beginning of human culture and everybody else is a crappy professional photocopying their cast-offs?

and now back to staring into the abyss, folks

Well, I was going to say:

If VVanGogh paints sunflowers, who is the artistic genius, him, or the guy that grew the sunflowers? (or, indeed, God?)

(or, indeed, God Richard Dawkins?)

XXX-Post. There is a difference between influence and just copying. Influence is good and healthy, as long as you use that influence from others to create a composition that, note-for-note, is entirely your own.

but i can guarantee that almost all composers are using notes previously used by other composers

I'm done with the current argument.

Back to the future of the music industry, yeah?

No no, this is a brand new e-flat xp

you stole my chord!

What's the past of the music industry?

anyone heard that new Travis LP 'Songs In The Key Of H'?

xp

shameless plagiarism and inauthenticity. also Geir thinks Schoenberg is a major artist.

But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

yeah, exactly -- or know a couple other local bands that have friends that will come see them play.

It's weird, I've become so used to the UK system that I've completely forgotten how the North American system works, with bands dealing directly with venues.

Like, in the UK, there's this middle layer of local promoters who fill that gap. That if you work with a really good promoter, they work to put you on a bill with local bands who have a similar fanbase as you, and promote the night, contact local press, etc. and get people down, so you don't have to have "local connections" just connections with good promoters.

(That said, really good promoters like that can be quite rare, there are far too many who do precisely nothing and expect to take the lion's share of the door just for making the phone calls to the band and the venue - but then they're getting shafted by the person who owns or manages the venue themselves, and in the end, no one actually gets paid but the soundperson.)

also Geir thinks Schoenberg is a major artist.

I would say the ultimate artistic achievement is to achieve artistic acclaim and mass popularity in the same breath. Schönberg, unlike Mozart and Handel and many others, never quite achieved the latter.....

xp - the soundperson, the alcohol vendors, and the landlord.

i dunno, Les Mis is pretty popular dude

Yeah, Sarahel, that's pretty much the order they get paid in.

-soundperson
-brewery
-bar staff
-promoter
-maybe the bands get some £ from the leftovers when everything else is divvied up

And then the punters start calling the *band* arrogant for actually asking for a guarantee.

i dunno, Les Mis is pretty popular dude

Not quite up there with "The Four Seasons" or "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" or the "Hallelujah" chorus....

I am willing to bet that The Messiah could not sell out Broadway and West End theatres for years at a stretch

And nobody's made the final of Britain's Got Talent playing some of Vivaldi's so-called serial music

Schoenberg is pretty awesome.

I couldn't hum the "popular" part of The Four Seasons tbh. it's never stuck with me.

xp

yeah Miss Saigon is a good one too

Noodle Vague, I was actually enjoying this thread until you decided to turn it into a spot of Geir-baiting.

I don't blame Geir for these derailments, I blame the half dozen posters who SHOULD KNOW BETTER who seem incapable of not jumping on a pile-on and turning a good, thoughtful thread into a clusterfuck. So thanks for spoiling it, NV.

But what you call "local connections" is often just as simple as having some friends who'll come and see you play, you know?

yeah, exactly -- or know a couple other local bands that have friends that will come see them play.

It's weird, I've become so used to the UK system that I've completely forgotten how the North American system works, with bands dealing directly with venues.

Like, in the UK, there's this middle layer of local promoters who fill that gap. That if you work with a really good promoter, they work to put you on a bill with local bands who have a similar fanbase as you, and promote the night, contact local press, etc. and get people down, so you don't have to have "local connections" just connections with good promoters.

(That said, really good promoters like that can be quite rare, there are far too many who do precisely nothing and expect to take the lion's share of the door just for making the phone calls to the band and the venue - but then they're getting shafted by the person who owns or manages the venue themselves, and in the end, no one actually gets paid but the soundperson.)

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, May 27, 2011 11:17 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lord i can't even imagine having "promoters" in a local club situation, uggg, so little money to go around as is...thank u black flag

I am willing to bet that The Messiah could not sell out Broadway and West End theatres for years at a stretch

In the 18th century, maybe.....

Only the most popular albums sell 50.000 here, but in the US or Canadian market, even rather underground acts should be able to shift 50.000 copies.

No, see, that's the problem. A relatively underground band could have sold 50,000 units in the '90s, but not anymore.

Mad kudos to Karen for dutifully keeping a sensible conversation going throughout this mentalism.

(hah, xposts)