A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

sorry, Alfred, I just figured you hadn't seen that interview based on your question. but there's been a big "H&O was better than you think" re-evaluation in indie/critic circles for years and years now.

I think that all of this bitching about musical artists is a bullshit cover for SFJ's annoyance at a fanbase that he has a distaste for.

the craziest thing in that whole article to me was when he says hall & oates were on the same level of talent as mj

I had a hard time getting past that. I thought, "He must live in that alternate universe where Lawrence Welk and Duke Ellington are neck-and-neck."

Can the term "classic rock" be banned.

how bout "wrinkle rock" instead?

and really, one could say the exact same thing about the "Americana" movement, right? Americana extols someone like Guy Clark (whom I like fine) over Kid Creole and the Coconuts (whom I love). Who's really more "American"? I mean, I guess you could put Townes Van Zandt on a Whitman sampler kind of thing, but August Darnell, who had far more to say about what American culture is really about, is just gonna scare people. You are not ever going to convince me that some Townes Van Zandt song is better than "Annie, I'm Not Your Daddy." A sense of humor always helps, I guess, and also getting shushed by people in Nashville's Bluebird Cafe, when you're just in a club like the ones you've been going to in Memphis or Jackson, Miss., where you can cut up like you're supposed to in a club and not view it as a church for songwriters, and you're bored by Steve Forbert playing his songs on four strings up there to people too dumb to know it's a shuck, helps too. So it's not just indie; it's the perception that rhythm and danceable stuff equals something less profound than Guy Clark or some of those singer-songwriters getting dusty in Texas and Nashville. It's just plain funny.

so glad I'm not "into music" anymore. "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" is still a vital query next to this crap.

"the craziest thing in that whole article to me was when he says hall & oates were on the same level of talent as mj"

In the podcast or on the New Yorker blog he says he was just trying to be provocative, or something like that. Still seems dumb.

Weren’t Hall & Oates reassessed at least ten years ago? I know my friends and I have always prized them unapologeticly, anyway.

I think curmudgeon's point is

Hall And Oates are pretty great, but COME THE FUCK ON IT'S MICHAEL JACKSON

SFJ blog post from when that stupid EMP paper about white DJs playing black music and "minstrelsy":

PS: Let me be clear—if this piece feels like some kind of "calling people out" routine, you've got the wrong end of the stick. I would gladly include myself or Ui in the representative sample I am using Shadow and Diplo to outline, except for two things: 1) I've DJ'd less than ten times in my life; and 2) not very many people bought Ui records. We weren't part of the popular conversation, so it would be silly to insert me or Ui just to sound "honest." But if you insist on reading guilt into this formulation (which is not its intent in any way, shape or form—pop isn't like that), then please make me more guilty than anyone.

did a bunch of people buy Ui records in the past 2 years or something?

lol

Too, jazz, blues and soul presupposed an apprenticeship of sorts--you went on the road, you learned the standards, you learned way more shit than the typical indie person who got in a band and learned some rock songs or stuff from his older brother's '70s record collection. A generation of people who think irony is all there is and rock and roll the answer to everything--and it's not even good rock and roll, a lot of the time.

Good point. And it's like, in the 40s, if you wanted to play bebop, you knew you had to have your shit together or you would get, at the very least, laughed off the stage. And Wayne Kramer talks about the "Kick out the jams or get off the stage!" culture of 60s Detroit. Neither of those things seem to exist in (ok, loosely defined) "indie rock culture." We're left with this terminally lazy acceptance of terminal laziness.

My strategy of cutting back most of my posting to RJG-style non sequiturs and letting eddshurt handle the thorny questions has been working out pretty well for me so far.

And Wayne Kramer talks about the "Kick out the jams or get off the stage!" culture of 60s Detroit

The Stooges could barely tune their guitars in 1968!

Road-hardened veterans they were not!

But they knew how to kick out the jams. Ultimate Spinach could tune their guitars and were road-hardened veterans, and got laughed out of town.

Ok Sara Sara Sara, we get that you want bash all indie rockers for being lazy and how they look onstage, and just praise your heroes from the past.

The Stooges is kind of an interesting example, since Iggy actually went to Chicago to learn how to be a blues drummer and then realized he wasn't going to make it and went back to Michigan to start the Stooges.

the problem with all these kinds of articles in general to me, is that they just invite vast oversimplifications, most people i know don't fit in to little neat boxes of "music fan types" people talk about on the internet

the only other thing I'd say is that I'm SO SICK of people acting like the Clash were some kind of crazy funky polygot prophets...I mean jesus christ, they are closer to Bruce Springsteen than the Meters at the end of the day and the Stones were a better dance band on "Miss You" than the Clash ever were.

"miss you"=any damn song the stones did

yeah that too

I'm SO SICK of people acting like the Clash were some kind of crazy funky polygot prophets

That's for sure.

And to think I bought into that Book of Rock Lists "Ten Bands That Lee Perry Says Play Reggae Properly" that included the Clash.

the clash were pretty funky, not that i trust ned raggett to be a judge of that anywayz

"Ten Bands That Have Paid Lee Perry A Lot of Money to Produce One of Their Records Who He Subsequently Says Play Reggae Properly" more like

Ok Sara Sara Sara, we get that you want bash all indie rockers for being lazy and how they look onstage, and just praise your heroes from the past.

Ah yes, my heroes from the past, like Fat Worm Of Error, and Thrillpillow. That was, what, 3 weeks ago?

(I feel like the Hulk..."ME WANT BASH!")

"Ten Bands That Have Paid Lee Perry A Lot of Money to Produce One of Their Records Who He Subsequently Says Play Reggae Properly" more like
Yeah, I think they updated the heading in the later editions.

the clash were pretty funky, not that i trust ned raggett to be a judge of that anywayz

Cubicle funky, even.

BASH

does a ned raggett smoke ganj

His sound system alter ego is Trent D. Gage.

What is the yardstick for measuring whether a band has been influenced by African-American music, and why does SFJ think he has one? And what privileges African-American music, other than the fact that it's the largest minority? Why aren't we complaining about indie's inability to absorb latino culture as we go into the 21st century?

mh, if anyone's questions/comments should be forwarded directly to SFJ's e-mail for him to respond to, they're yours, seriously.

I guess you haven't read any of the prior pazz and jop threads or various other ones on these subjects.

my, you are aptly named.

I have, though, and I don't think that ruminating on this stuff for years really makes you an expert at it, or that the arguments are getting any better or even more coherent.

Why aren't we complaining about indie's inability to absorb latino culture as we go into the 21st century?

I'm waiting for the follow-up where SFJ criticizes the Arcade Fire for playing out of clave.

Why aren't we complaining about indie's inability to absorb latino culture as we go into the 21st century?

I won't even hum the rock-en-español number on the new Rilo Kiley.

And what privileges African-American music, other than the fact that it's the largest minority?

Cultural impact, history

As for the Latino influence, I am sure Ned Sublette's writing was discussed somewhere, and you can post on that thread.

What is the yardstick for measuring whether a band has been influenced by African-American music, and why does SFJ think he has one? And what privileges African-American music, other than the fact that it's the largest minority? Why aren't we complaining about indie's inability to absorb latino culture as we go into the 21st century?

xpost
OTM, i dont get it at all. Why African music? Why=blues=african...even. I know. Long time ago...etc etc...but the blues surely ain't your typical African music anymore, or is it

Why aren't we complaining about indie's inability to absorb latino culture as we go into the 21st century?

http://www.dailyreckless.co.uk/fall/images/marquischacha.jpg

What does history have to do with bunch of white kids making music they want to make. It's not relevant at all

Maybe Bobby Sanabria can come and school some people.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5101Z9FE6DL._AA280_.jpg

I wonder how these guys fit in?

i mean the clash could be kind of funky but jeez it's like people forget that 75 percent of their recorded catalog is white rock as white rock gets. some people act like they were the fucking JBs or something.

i like the clash. for real. good band.

i like lee perry too, but he's also like crazy as fuck.

i dont really give a fuck about the clash & the punk rock stuff bores me to tears but casbah & magnificent seven are srsly funky

yeah totally they are. but that's not typical of them really.

M@tt, don't go all gabbneb on us!