DEM not gonna CON dis NATION: Rolling UK politics in the short-lived post-Murdoch era

I'm sorry, DL but going from "this subset of situation X is potentially Y" to "the logical extension is that ALL subsets of situation X are Y" is a very basic error of logic and I'm not going to bother continuing this thread with you because, like, most of us learned not to make those errors in 8th grade maths.

don't see anything more complex here than

all the cops are over there <--- we can nick stuff over here ---> and not get busted

kinda admire the torturous attempts to blame this on david cameron tho :D

Karen I'm trying to work out what you're saying and therefore asking for clarification. You're finding ways to avoid those questions and chuck insults.

A lot of the stuff that was taken wasn't just covetable, it was easy to sell on for cash - portable, valuable and difficult to trace.

yeah this leapt out at me too - not convinced it's so simple as looters wanting things for themselves.

i don't think rioters are expressing anger against capitalism - the capitalist mindset is, i think, hugely embedded in them. it's been constantly drummed into kids in poor areas and estates that their best way out is via capitalism x protestant work ethic - work hard and you can be an entrepreneur, set up your own business, make money. stealing consumer goods to sell on (if that's what was going on) seems an oddly logical manifestation of that.

i don't think rioters are expressing anger against capitalism - the capitalist mindset is, i think, hugely embedded in them. it's been constantly drummed into kids in poor areas and estates that their best way out is via capitalism x protestant work ethic - work hard and you can be an entrepreneur, set up your own business, make money. stealing consumer goods to sell on (if that's what was going on) seems an oddly logical manifestation of that.

Cosign all of this.

though that may be projection (which kinda goes for everyone in this thread, which shouldn't prevent theories and discussion obv)

No, you aren't, Dorian. You're repeatedly *telling* me what I'm saying, and I'm not doing this with you any more.

OK, fine, excellent. I look forward to it.

xp to lex. Right. I don't see how one can read looting as anti-capitalist rather than another manifestation of capitalism, unless the looted items are distributed to other people. I understand the frustration and the unfairness and the appalling job prospects in somewhere like Tottenham but I stop short of making apologies for looting.

DL, might I politely suggest that for something to be endorsed rather than simply cited, I'd have to be a lot less neutral in my choice of words? I'm just finding the 'mindlessness' ascribed to looters to be a wee bit patronizing, wherever it comes from.

A lot of the stuff that was taken wasn't just covetable, it was easy to sell on for cash - portable, valuable and difficult to trace.

yeah this leapt out at me too - not convinced it's so simple as looters wanting things for themselves.

I don't think there's much of a distinction between looting things to sell and looting to keep.

i don't think rioters are expressing anger against capitalism - the capitalist mindset is, i think, hugely embedded in them. it's been constantly drummed into kids in poor areas and estates that their best way out is via capitalism x protestant work ethic - work hard and you can be an entrepreneur, set up your own business, make money. stealing consumer goods to sell on (if that's what was going on) seems an oddly logical manifestation of that.

OK, that's a perfectly logical and reasonable assesssment, and an interesting one. It's not anger at capitalism so much as a twisted take on capitalism extended to its brutal ends?

That's kind of a same input, different conclusion to the things I was thinking aloud about.

it's been constantly drummed into kids in poor areas and estates that their best way out is via capitalism x protestant work ethic - work hard and you can be an entrepreneur, set up your own business, make money.

also alongside being constantly told that they can achieve this if they work hard enough is the reality that, if they're from that background, becoming richard branson or jay-z or alan sugar is the exception not the rule, and ISN'T just a question of hard work, and that's where a lot of the anger probably derives from

lex was half right. the second half was about some sort of capitalist robin hood theory.

"All agents in the manufacture of desire, all selling things with a high degree of unattainability to the average unemployed youth."

yes yes, we get it, they are making people want things. LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS DOES. THIS IS WHAT ALL BUSINESSES DO. it makes people who cant afford it want it more. you can analyse it as 'why nandos' or 'why footlocker' but there isnt much discrimination other than 'can i get it' and 'do they have something i want'. H&M, M&S, currys, mcdonalds, it made no difference. yeah the chains will prob suffer more as they are more coveted but if there was an independent shop selling the same goods it will get fucked over too. its basically just "*Why* can't I afford this?" and "why don't I have the job/income/opportunities to afford this?" resulting in 'im going to get it'.

"I don't think there's much of a distinction between looting things to sell and looting to keep."

you are overlooking the entrepreneurial spirit at play here.

I don't think there's much of a distinction between looting things to sell and looting to keep.

seems like a pretty important distinction to me

xp to suzy - I agree. "Mindless" is one of those entirely inaccurate, argument-closing words politicians always reach for in these situations. Actions are never mindless even if you don't like the minds behind them. Sorry if I misread you. I wasn't doing it for kicks - it was genuinely how I interpreted your two posts.

independent shops DID get fucked over too.

Karen, you honestly think the people looting Foot Locker thought for a moment about the injustice of Asian sweatshops?

(a) How did you know they weren't?
(b) Isn't that a rather patronising assumption to make, namely that (by inference) none of them was capable of thinking this?
(c) Isn't it, by extension, continued patronising of the working class and the deprived by well-meaning "liberals" which contributes majorly to the incremental pissed-off/piss-off feeling that leads to rioting or looting? The condescending pat on the head which implies, "very good, now back to work (if you can find it) and contribute to our profits under the illusion that you're buying yourself life?"

I actually don't understand the Nando's thing. Are they taking the chicken home and cooking it?

surely the same people are doing both, keeping x pairs of trainers selling the rest?
xp

There's a difference between not assuming they're illiterate idiots and projecting thoughts onto them.

― Matt DC, Monday, 8 August 2011 10:05 (1 hour ago)

nandos sauces in bottles innit

"independent shops DID get fucked over too."

well thats my point. we can look at footlocker and nike and reebok or whoever as manufacturing disproportionate levels of desire in ppl that cant afford it but the fact is rioters dont care who it is. theyre just looting. theyre not discriminating. i mean, sure im sure some kids watched bbc3 docus on sweatshops and whatever, but really, i doubt theyve been reading no logo.

"There's a difference between not assuming they're illiterate idiots and projecting thoughts onto them."

some ppl really want to think the best of the rioters. its like that observer review of tyler OF. 'but hes so smart!'

anyone concerned w/plight of asian sweatshop workers could have found a better protest than to alert the shop there's a high demand for sweatshop trainers and also to oblige them to order a fuckload of new stock

just sayin'

I actually don't understand the Nando's thing. Are they taking the chicken home and cooking it?

There were reports that people broke into the Wood Green branch of McDonalds and started preparing their own food, although that's a little difficult to believe.

xp to Marcello. Fair point. Bad phrasing - I don't mean they were intellectually incapable of knowing or caring about sweatshops, just that it's a huge stretch to assume that was a significant factor. Matt DC said it better than I can.

I'd have thought that people who cared about caricaturing or patronising the poor or deprived would want to make a clearer distinction between them and a minority of looters TBH.

The Nando's thing does kind of throw that argument, though, Lex, because there's nothing in the shop to steal, loot or sell on. It does seem to be something which is specifically directed at a lifestyle. I dunno, maybe I've misread how Nandos is perceived due to how it's discussed/represented in my part of South London (I've never been to one, my entire understanding of it is based around how it's represented by bus talk and twitter) that it's something somehow both aspirational and "ghetto" at the same time? (I feel uncomfortable using that word but it describes the class-race intersectionality.) That whether it's seen as coded "up" or "down" really depends on who is describing it.

But there's this stratified class and race faultzone right down the A23, so that might not have the same implication elsewhere.

the nando's thing is weird, i always got the impression that nando's was fairly beloved? maybe they were hungry. not being flippant there really, if you get into the mob mindset whereby you're doing whatever you want and no one's stopping you, why not go get some of your favourite food?

also the weird testosterone-driven love of smashing things up for just the love of smashing things up that i've never understood, whether it's bullingdon style antics or football fans celebrating or something like this

they were cooking their own burgers in mcdonalds so i hear.

I think a lot of anger (in this or any situation) is subconscious and unfocussed - kind of unsure about people prescribing very black and white motives, when its likely to be a mix of all the different things being stated, and not necessarily in a coherent manner

and yeah, there is the mob-mentality "smash it up, chuck a fire extinguisher out the window" thing. a lot of it seems quite unfocused.

There were reports that people broke into the Wood Green branch of McDonalds and started preparing their own food, although that's a little difficult to believe.

They broke in, fired up the ovens and cooked the food they'd brought with them?

nando's is beloved. also cheap as fuck, you can afford a meal there on the broo no bother.

does nandos really come with lifestyle marketing? honestly i think its popularity in areas with big non white populations is simply down to what they serve sitting well with the general diets of most non english people. nandos is deeply liked i far as i know. more than somewhere like mcdonalds. and nandos isnt that expensive. i think youre reading too much into the attack on one isolated branch. its just testosterone and people lashing out at pretty much anything. its def about consumerism and poverty and so on but looking at individual places or chains i think might be a bit of a red herring.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg described the second night of rioting as "needless opportunistic theft and violence"

So whereabouts is he on holiday then?

riots are basically just unfocused destruction, this seems fairly simple to me, there is nothing political in the targets of desctruction and looting, it's basically what's there, corner shop or hmv, doesn't matter a jot, they'll get done.

"I think a lot of anger (in this or any situation) is subconscious and unfocussed - kind of unsure about people prescribing very black and white motives, when its likely to be a mix of all the different things being stated, and not necessarily in a coherent manner"

otm

Anger can be subconscious and unfocused, but still have legitimate reasons behind it?

I think it is an and/both situation, and there may be as many different motivations as there were rioters. I'm just saying that one motivation does not necessarily preclude the others.

i think people who eat at nandos have kind of a love/hate relationship with it.

MSNBC: LONDON -- As political and social protests grip the Middle East, are growing in Europe and a riot exploded in north London this weekend, here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

well what did he have to say after that?

i think people who eat at nandos have kind of a love/hate relationship with it.

― caek

footballers fucking love it. joey barton tweeted the other day "stereotypical footballer tweet, i'm off to nando's then the cinema".

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

I think a lot of anger (in this or any situation) is subconscious and unfocussed - kind of unsure about people prescribing very black and white motives, when its likely to be a mix of all the different things being stated, and not necessarily in a coherent manner

Yes and no, there's one obvious focus of anger - the police - but a whole range of other causes and contributory factors. I agree, I don't think it's particularly conscious or directional in many cases, there are a lot of people involved and it's hardly a hivemind.

my guess is nando's was sort of a "because it's there" thing.

Quite different to how it's being reported in the local press, which is all "opportunistic chaos"

http://www.streathamguardian.co.uk/news/9183106.UPDATE__Looters_cause_chaos_in_Streatham_and_Brixton/

so who knows.

It's a bit weird reading about your own city from the POV of foreign reporters acting like it's "the middle east", how different the tones are from how it's reported here. What's NBC's general politial alignment? I can't remember.

there's more fat and calories in a nando's than a kfc

^^^ the real reason

you can get a lot of good sauces from nandos, hot, medium, mild, garlic, herb, and so on. id like to get them all for free if i could.

my impression is the descent of europe into anarchy due to economic management is part of a narrative in parts of u.s. politics, so events tend to be overstated/misinterpreted to fit in with this.

oh god yeah the sauces are incredible. nando's and pizza express sauces man. makes me proud to be british.

there's more fat and calories in a nando's than a kfc

Is this true? The chicken's grilled and not fried so the sauces must be made out of pure lard or something. Admittedly a Nando's is much bigger than a KFC.