I don't have a particular CD80 version in mind (yet), but I know that I'd cut "Zero" and "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" in a heartbeat. I don't particularly care for either.
And I could take or leave "Tonight, Tonight," but "Thirty-Three" and "1979" would be essential.
― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 17:43 (seventeen years ago) link
This gets my award for worst lyrics ever:
"Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanlinessAnd cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like me (dumb)Intoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness (peeee-YUKE!)Bullshit fakers (like Billy?), enchanted kingdoms The fasion victims (Oh, like Billy?) chew their charcoal teeth" (dumb)
― the Adversary (but, still, a friend of yours) (Uri Frendimein), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 17:51 (seventeen years ago) link
I'll never forget seeing the debut of the "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" video on Much Music. It would have been October 95.
The lyrics, the riffs, the imagery in the video - all of it made me nauseous. I was extremely disappointed with the album, and I didn't pay attention to them from that moment on.
I think Wogan made a good point. Probably would have sounded great had I been a teenager. I was 23 at the time.
― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 17:56 (seventeen years ago) link
@ concept of this thread
― benrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 19:08 (seventeen years ago) link
------
01 Where Boys Fear to Tread02 BodiesAn excellent start to disc two of Mellon Collie; my version keeps both tracks intact, mirroring the one-two punch of "Cherub Rock" and "Quiet, rocking out at the start and avoiding the singles so far.
03 MuzzleThis should have been a single from Mellon Collie; it would be the lead single (and prominently placed third track, like "Today") on my version.
04 197905 Here Is No WhyA good spot for a couple strong songs (think "Hummer" and "Rocket") which deserve to come sooner than later in the album; "1979" would be the second or third single, along with...
06 Thirty-Three07 We Only Come Out at NightThe last of the three singles from my version gets the spot of "Disarm" here, with an excellent low-key song (a la "Soma") to follow it and complement its mood perfectly.
08 JellybellyLest the album go soft before its time, "Geek USA" is mirrored by this one.
09 GalapogosThe epic song, like "Mayonaise," that would rightfully be a fan favorite comes at this point; too far back in the track listing for fair-weather fans, just right for those who learn the album front-to-back.
10 Stumbleine11 Thru the Eyes of Ruby12 Lily (My One and Only)Following the path of "Spaceboy"-"Silverfuck"-"Sweet Sweet" comes this trio of songs; the album's ambitious, lengthy, epic song bookended with a couple shorter, prettier ones.
13 Farewell and GoodnightThe closer on Mellon Collie stays where it should be, closing the album (like "Luna") with subtlety and beauty.
I don't really miss anything from the original Mellon Collie with my version, either.
> The ridiculous RAWK songs - "Zero," "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," "Fuck You," "Scorched Earth," and "XYU" - would be perfect for '90s alt-rock bands who actually deserve to suck, not the Pumpkins.
> The slower discarded songs - "To Forgive," "Cupid De Locke," "Take Me Down," "In the Arms of Sleep," "Beautiful," and "By Starlight" - are sappy and forgettable to my ears, especially compared to similar songs that made the cut.
> "Mellon Collie," the instrumental intro, was appropriate for an ambitious double album, not for my version.
> A couple songs in particular - "Tonight, Tonight" and "Love" - just didn't fit the overall mood of my version of the album.
> Two epics on my version would be excessive, so "Porcelina" was left behind in favor of "Ruby," which works better in context.
― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 19:42 (seventeen years ago) link
I've never had any use at all for "Stumbleine." You're probably right about opening with "Where Boys Fear To Tread" - I thought about doing it that way too, I mean that opening bass slide is such a fabulous stage-setter! Something appeals to me about cutting straight in on the out-front riffing trudge of "Zero" though - it sets up an idea of what the album is that will then be immediately blown to pieces by what follows.
Glad to see "Thru The Eyes of Ruby" and "Galapogos" getting their due in any case. And my local alt-rock station actually played "Muzzle" so much I thought it was the final single!
No mainstream rock band is doing something this big at the moment. It seems that after OK Computer and Mellon Collie, people decided to go back to just drums/guitar/bass punk singalongs as they knew they couldn't compete.
This is interesting! I was satisfied thinking of these albums as unique for the period, but has mainstream rock really not produced anything in this vein since? I'm racking my brain and I'm sure we're missing something really obvious. Granted, there have been "ambitious" mainstream rock albums - I guess American Idiot is being viewed this way - but not with this much sonic variety and sheer quantity of different ideas and hooks in play. Who'll be the next to try? For some reason I think Modest Mouse could have it in them - they've certainly done huge widescreen albums before, and have shown at least some willingness to bend on the guitar-band format. Dunno, though.
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:29 (seventeen years ago) link
I don't really like the kitchen sink approach, though - Cave's album is more sonically cohesive than Mellon Collie could ever claim to be, and a lot stronger for it. I much prefer Mellon Collie in its truncated form; I would skip around anyway listening to the whole thing.
What would you suggest to take the place of "Stumbleine" as a slower transitional track to "Ruby" anyway?
― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:40 (seventeen years ago) link
― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:46 (seventeen years ago) link
second the praise of abbatoir blues/lyre of orpheus.
― M@tt He1geson: Real Name, No Gimmicks (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 20:53 (seventeen years ago) link
Interesting that you draw a comparison between "Soma" and "We Only Come Out at Night," b/c "Soma" = EPIC GUITAR FREAKOUT. "Porcelina" would seem like a more obvious choice, but I think I understand yr choice.
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 10 October 2006 21:24 (seventeen years ago) link
HOLLA BACK STAN I GOT U COVERED!!!!!!!!
― pumkin (pumkin), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 02:11 (seventeen years ago) link
They supposedly had 45 songs going into the studio.
Just a totally played out venture, Darcy and Johnny Aha were nowhere to be heard from.
― Brandon Welch (Brandon Welch), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 04:05 (seventeen years ago) link
I think "We Only Come Out at Night" relates more to the first 3:00 and last :45 of "Soma" than to the guitar parts in the middle - I was really trying to capture the overall mood of the song, and I remember "Soma" as a come-down in the wake of the bombastic high of "Disarm" more so than a guitar song, believe it or not.
― Stephen Bush (Stephen B.), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 13:51 (seventeen years ago) link
No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 13:56 (seventeen years ago) link
― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 14:47 (seventeen years ago) link
28 songs on Mellon Collie, plus 21 Corgan or Iha songs that ended up being b-sides . Damn, that's enough songs for four full length albums!
But yeah, they needed an editor for this album. I always thought the second disc was much stronger than the first. I would take...
Cupid de Locke, Galpagos, and Porcelina off the first disc.
Thirty-Three, In the Arms of Sleep, 1979, Stumbeline, X.Y.U. (maybe), We Only Come Out at Night, Lily, By Starlight off of the second.
That comes out to about 52 minutes, and a much less rocking album. But to my ears at least, the more rocking Pumpkins songs are the ones that have dated the worst. The guitar histrionics don't really blow me away like they used to, and that's when Corgan tends to bust out his most embarassing lyrics. My version would come out closer to the mood of Adore, which is fine with me because I always liked Adore better than Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie or Gish.
― Zachary Scott (Zach S), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link
I haven't listened to either disc of this album in forever, however, I do often listen to a mix CD I made a few years back containing a short list of their longest, most overblown songs (which are invariably my favs) - "Porcelina..." and "Through The Eyes Of A Ruby" are included (as is my other favorite ginormous Punkins jam "Starla").
― got yourself a fish biscuit! (nickalicious), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 17:03 (seventeen years ago) link
Thru The Eyes of a RubySomaSilverfuckStarlaPorcelina of the Vast Oceans
― got yourself a fish biscuit! (nickalicious), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link
― got yourself a fish biscuit! (nickalicious), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 17:07 (seventeen years ago) link
"(Aeroplane Over the Sea or something like that)"
Even better!
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 23:38 (seventeen years ago) link
this is, obviously, crazy talk.
if you do not concede that Siamese Dream's roar+bluster demolishes Adores faux-goth leanings and electronic feel, you, sir, are missing out on the whole sheebang.
"No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em."happily, after all these years, i think i've heard a good amount of em, and have em in high quality (thank you Gravity Demos!!!! that thing slays me in many ways, but none as better {or as telling as where MCIS would go} as the indominateable 'Jackboot') which, ya know,i got that goin for me...
― edde (edde), Wednesday, 11 October 2006 23:49 (seventeen years ago) link
But Adore can never be the bad Smashing Pumpkins album because "Appels + Oranjes" PWNS PWNS PWNS
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 12 October 2006 00:20 (seventeen years ago) link
― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Thursday, 12 October 2006 00:26 (seventeen years ago) link
I guess I am missing out of the traditional appeal of the Smashing Pumpkins. I do have to admit that I didn't start listening to music, not even radio, until early 1998, so except for hearing Bullet with Butterfly Wings blasting out of a car passing by, I have no idea what it felt like to listen to the music when it was contemporary. By the time I got around to listening to Siamese Dream around 2000, a lot of it already sounded dated to my ears.
If there were ever an album that needed trimming more than those off Mellon Collie, it's fucking Adore for those four yawnfest songs at the end.
Agreed, except for "For Martha". That's been one of my favorite Smashing Pumpkins songs since I first heard it.
― Zachary Scott (Zach S), Thursday, 12 October 2006 02:12 (seventeen years ago) link
Not sure how much it counts as mainstream rock, but Worlds Apart reminded me of this album quite a bit.
― lrsn (larssen), Thursday, 12 October 2006 07:00 (seventeen years ago) link
i almost feel bad for people who got into SP during MCIS, they missed the good part of their career (and many will say "there's a GOOD part?!"). after the whole JImmy Debacle, it was only downhill for them to me.
"Worlds Apart reminded me of this album quite a bit."a little, i guess. or maybe MCIS reminds me of Worlds's Apart (and quite possibly why i don't dig that album as much).
― edde (edde), Thursday, 12 October 2006 11:19 (seventeen years ago) link
OTMsucked then, sucks now
― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 12 October 2006 11:24 (seventeen years ago) link
― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 12 October 2006 11:25 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 October 2006 11:36 (seventeen years ago) link
Ok maybe Ned or someone wld know this, but was Corgan a stan for Japan? I'm listening to "Fall in Love with Me" and it sounds like the mother source of half this album.
― existential eggs (Abbott), Wednesday, 21 October 2009 19:28 (fourteen years ago) link
Been a while since I heard said song so I'm giving a listen now -- good catch! I remember Corgan mostly talking about things like Joy Division, Bauhaus and the Cure when it comes to the goth/proto-goth stuff he loved most but this would make perfect sense as something else in the mix.
For those wondering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvxrfCm0I0s
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 October 2009 19:48 (fourteen years ago) link
Glad you hear it too.
― existential eggs (Abbott), Wednesday, 21 October 2009 19:50 (fourteen years ago) link
The earlier Japan stuff is sometimes a blind spot for me so this is v. helpful (it's a bit like how I keep forgetting how good/weird/potentially inspiring Adam Ant's Dirk Wears White Sox is).
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 October 2009 19:52 (fourteen years ago) link
I can't get into Japan's first two albums at all.
― existential eggs (Abbott), Wednesday, 21 October 2009 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link
ha that japan track. the round lead guitar tone + bratty vocals are v Pumpkins indeed
― harriet tubgirl (Curt1s Stephens), Wednesday, 21 October 2009 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link
"Set The Ray to Jerry" is pretty Japan-ish, if I remember, in a more contemplative mode. One of two Smashing Pumpkins songs I remain nostalgic for (along with "Glynis").
― Soundslike, Thursday, 22 October 2009 00:03 (fourteen years ago) link
When it breaks down in the chorus it isn't as evident, but the verses on that Japan song Ned posted really does sound like Smashing Pumpkins.
― earlnash, Thursday, 22 October 2009 05:22 (fourteen years ago) link
anyone who hates "Zero" hates rock and roll imo
― babbylon falling (Curt1s Stephens), Sunday, 18 April 2010 03:45 (fourteen years ago) link
fuck you if you disagree
relax your vagina Curt1s
― Turangalila, Sunday, 18 April 2010 04:03 (fourteen years ago) link
THOSE FUCKING HARMONICS!!!
― babbylon falling (Curt1s Stephens), Sunday, 18 April 2010 04:11 (fourteen years ago) link
Hoo damn, "Porcelina," what a grower - - skipped the shit out of it when I first got this, seems like the best song on the album to me now.
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 17 March 2011 06:51 (thirteen years ago) link
2nd behind Ruby which I was rocking earlier - long-form suited these guys
― acoleuthic, Thursday, 17 March 2011 07:12 (thirteen years ago) link
― Turangalila, Sunday, 18 April 2010 05:03 (10 months ago)
― kid 606: the nultness (nakhchivan), Thursday, 17 March 2011 15:39 (thirteen years ago) link
― babbylon falling (Curt1s Stephens), Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:45 PM (11 months ago) Bookmark
what i dislike about "Zero" is how little it rocks, has such a steady metronome feel and static guitar arrangement that only leaps out for a few seconds for that goofy solo, whereas most of SP's best aggressive uptempo songs really jump out of the speakers and swing and breathe
― some dude, Thursday, 17 March 2011 15:43 (thirteen years ago) link
I wonder if adults felt the same way about something like The Cure's Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me when it came out? There may be some similarities between them. Except that I'm drawn to The Cure's album, flaws and all, whereas even the supposedly strong moments on the Pumpkins album repelled me. I actually was able to listen to it all the way through for the first time recently when I was working on my 90s thing for the first time since it came out. 15+ years later, it doesn't give me hives anymore. Anyone else liked the Pumpkins through Siamese Dream, then hated them beyond reason, and came back round to grudging acceptance?
― Fastnbulbous, Friday, 18 March 2011 03:39 (thirteen years ago) link
"Porcelina" has always been my favourite on that album along with "1979" and "Tonight Tonight".
A patchy album it is though. And obviously way too long.
― You're Twistin' My Melody Man! (Geir Hongro), Friday, 18 March 2011 04:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Coincidentally I was just reading Jim DeRogatis' Milk It, and got to the chapter on his contentious relationship with Billy Corgan. He absolutely hates the lyrics of the first three albums, but was actually pretty positive about the music on Mellon Collie:
Corgan and James Iha stretch out on several fiery guitar workouts, covering the gamut from Tom Scholz-style studio perfection to Sonic Youth noise-rock skronk. The Pumpkins deftly swing from unapologetic art rock (the nine-minutes-plus "Porcelina of the vast Oceans" to pop metal in the Boston or Journey vein ("Tonight Tonight"), and from techno-industrial lullabies ("Beautiful") to twisted cow punk ("We Only Come Out at Night"). Brimming with hooks, the songs quickly work their way into your subconscious, making the album seem a lot shorter than it is...Musically, Mellon Collie solidifies Corgan's position as one of his generation's most ambitious songwriters--no one else in alternative rock's superstar stratum has attempted an album of such length, let alone scope, and it may even match The Wall in its sonic accomplishments. But his lyrics don't fare nearly as well in comparison. It may be too much to ask that Corgan be as poetic as Kurt Cobain or as earnest as Eddie Vedder, though his therapeutic self-examinations could at lest probe as deeply as Trent Reznor's. But while Waters's tale of the rock star Pink only reached the literary level of a comic book, "We don't need no education / We don't need no thought control" seems deeper, more universal, more entertaining--and heck, a lot more inspiring--than, "Living makes me sick / So sick I wish I'd die."
Musically, Mellon Collie solidifies Corgan's position as one of his generation's most ambitious songwriters--no one else in alternative rock's superstar stratum has attempted an album of such length, let alone scope, and it may even match The Wall in its sonic accomplishments. But his lyrics don't fare nearly as well in comparison. It may be too much to ask that Corgan be as poetic as Kurt Cobain or as earnest as Eddie Vedder, though his therapeutic self-examinations could at lest probe as deeply as Trent Reznor's. But while Waters's tale of the rock star Pink only reached the literary level of a comic book, "We don't need no education / We don't need no thought control" seems deeper, more universal, more entertaining--and heck, a lot more inspiring--than, "Living makes me sick / So sick I wish I'd die."
― Fastnbulbous, Saturday, 19 March 2011 01:17 (thirteen years ago) link
Crap production. Crap lyrics. Crap singing. Crap concept. Great album though.
― jesse is a girl's name, Saturday, 19 March 2011 03:56 (thirteen years ago) link
the hi-hat accents on "1979" seem like they'd be tricky to pull off!
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
oh i guess it's the drum machine that does those:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuOFL_XU7jc
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:02 (three years ago) link
^^
and even then, hard to pull off with the same feel (drum-machine assist in the original I guess)
according to leading randos, Chamberlain didn't bother trying to do the hi-hat accents live, either
xp
― The GOAT Harold Land (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:02 (three years ago) link
i tried to drum along to "geek usa" yesterday too and it was hilarious. chamberlin is a tank
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:12 (three years ago) link
Nah JC is playing along with the drum machine on 1979, I can't listen to confirm but iirc the hi hat accent only comes in after the first stanza?
Here is No Why is so much fun to play, Brad
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:13 (three years ago) link
these are things i already implicitly knew but there's an extra reality to it when i'm trying to make my idiot arms and legs do anything he does, especially at that speed
i can play "rhinoceros" too, primarily because it's slow. it's also a blast xp
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:14 (three years ago) link
what about To Forgive? that's a great drum part
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:16 (three years ago) link
iirc the hi hat accent only comes in after the first stanza
yep
― The GOAT Harold Land (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:16 (three years ago) link
SP has like 10000000 great drum parts
hearing what JC can do with just a lil trap kit in the first sets of the pajama shows is so valuable. I think they played To Forgive in that set? or no, they alternated.
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:17 (three years ago) link
― flappy bird, Wednesday, July 15, 2020 10:16 AM (forty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
i played along with it yesterday too but i'm pretty sure i severely bowdlerized it, gonna have to study further
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:17 (three years ago) link
i'm honestly proud of myself for even being able to suss out how he's playing what he's playing without drum cover videos, when i first started drumming jimmy's playing made absolutely no sense to me
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:19 (three years ago) link
one of several SP songs I can't even passably air drum
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:20 (three years ago) link
when i hear drum rolls, i know i'm either about to cherub rock or watch pocahontas on disney+
― a morley steve vai bad horsie what? (Sufjan Grafton), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link
those snare rolls during the second and third choruses of Here is No Why >>>>
great use of the Ab octave pumpkin chord in that part!
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
that song kicks so much ass
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 17:42 (three years ago) link
I haven't drummed in forever but I would love to attempt drumming 'Muzzle'. At least that first bit. I assume the logistics are a little something like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV5JOQyUYNg
― Well, that's a fine howdy adieu! (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 18:22 (three years ago) link
The drums on "Jellybelly" are maniacal.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 21:48 (three years ago) link
Years ago I had friends that put together a Pumpkins cover band for a benefit and I hung out at a bunch of their practices. Even just watching someone else try to learn Jimmy's parts brought me a whole new appreciation.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 15 July 2020 21:57 (three years ago) link
did they try Jellybelly? lol
yeah even the "simple" parts are deceptively complex (like To Forgive, or even the straightforward electric version of Disarm where he comes in on the second verse)
― flappy bird, Thursday, 16 July 2020 00:16 (three years ago) link
tomorrow’s just an excuse away
― brimstead, Friday, 7 April 2023 21:50 (one year ago) link
my 6 yr old loves "an ode to no one"
― Heez, Saturday, 8 April 2023 02:32 (one year ago) link