fake juke (or "footwork-inspired") tracks can be good too.
― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:10 (twelve years ago) link
oh absolutely, machinedrum's "room(s)" is like a daily listen for me right now and if i had to make a top 10 tracks of the last two years there would for sure be at least one if not two or three addison groove tracks (mind you, he has a total of eight tracks released)
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:14 (twelve years ago) link
but i think that to say that addison groove is "making chicago juke" or "making footwork tracks" is not true to either chicago juke or addison groove
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:15 (twelve years ago) link
i don't think it's that untrue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e31Cdk1ijk
― fauxmarc, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:18 (twelve years ago) link
add chrissy murderbot to the encyclopedia of ersatz footwork
― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:27 (twelve years ago) link
See, I understand the OG footwork stuff is pretty righteous and whatnot, but even aficionados will admit that much of the tacky/brutal aspects can get a bit wearisome after a while. I kind of like the more polished takes that are starting to creep into the work of external producers.
― Sonny Chevrotain (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:42 (twelve years ago) link
yeh dude and no one outside of bronx can credibly make hip hop.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 14:54 (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
excellent analogy
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:09 (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
think the point is more that if this production style starts to get proper global recognition outside of nerd circles (and I'm not saying it will), then if the consensus wants it to get called footwork then that's what it'll get called
― Amazing pic of the universe! - VERY NSFW (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:47 (twelve years ago) link
would've thought that was obvious. Saying it ain't footwork if it doesn't come from Chicago is like saying it ain't dubstep unless it's from South London or something.
― Sonny Chevrotain (dog latin), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 15:56 (twelve years ago) link
it seems like there are only a few options when outsiders get inspired by a regional scene like this:
1) they cop the style really hard and make music that passes as authentic/integrate themselves into the scene
2) they take some of the ideas and do a watered-down, shittier interpretation
3) they take some of the ideas and make something that is different but actually good in its own right
― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:09 (twelve years ago) link
has anyone not from chicago done #1
― D-40, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:12 (twelve years ago) link
there are ppl from chicago doing # 2 certainly
― D-40, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:13 (twelve years ago) link
no, it's not
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:15 (twelve years ago) link
not that i know of, but it's certainly happened with other scenes (thinking of new orleans, certain jazz & latin music, etc)
― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:16 (twelve years ago) link
yes and that may happen in the future too
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:29 (twelve years ago) link
with chicago juke / footwork too
it's a bit like arguing that diplo is making "baile funk". i mean, i guess you can argue that if you want, but there's not really any point in learning anything about favelas or brazil because that's not going to tell you anything about diplo, whereas it will tell you quite a bit about actual funk carioca
same with calling addison groove or machinedrum footwork
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:52 (twelve years ago) link
footcrab was totally overrated looking back on it now
dumb shit is a bit better
he did a good thing in bringing it to ppl's attention though
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 09:25 (twelve years ago) link
"Dumbshit" is alright, but "Footcrab" (and "Fuk Tha 101") are way more fun. Rly tho the best fake juke track by some distance is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYFYAa8iOBg
― markers aurelius (The Reverend), Thursday, 1 September 2011 09:57 (twelve years ago) link
Hmmm.... I guess this hinges on whether you consider footwork to be exclusive to Chicago or not. I'd find it hard to parse if a UK producer were said to be making "Chicago Juke", absolutely, but without the geographical signifier footwork has a very specific sound and I don't see why someone from out of Chicago couldn't be said to make it. This is starting to get like a conversation about champagne and sparkling wine.
― Sonny Chevrotain (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 10:06 (twelve years ago) link
xpost - I agree 'work them' is a fantastic track.
re: champagne and sparkling wine - similar but perhaps there is nothing as tangible as a grape to work with in this discussion.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Thursday, 1 September 2011 13:27 (twelve years ago) link
I think there's enough of a sonic difference between Chicago Juke dudes and non Chicago Juke dudes to make a distinction that's not strictly geographical. Like, even something like footcrab would stand out from a list of DJ Rashad tracks, or whatever.
i think that to say that addison groove is "making chicago juke" or "making footwork tracks" is not true to either chicago juke or addison groove
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:15 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
OTM. Plus, Addison Groove = <3
― qpÓ™ (EDB), Thursday, 1 September 2011 13:55 (twelve years ago) link
I have to step in here with the Champagne / sparkling wine comparison (I do wine for a living)... Champagne is Champagne because of the particularities of soil, climate, luminosity, weather patterns, ambient yeasts, etc, etc; i.e., it's of a specific place, and by definition cannot be made (or replicated) anywhere else on earth. This is the crux of meaningful wine, its "somewhereness"; no amount of technical copying or procedural mimicry can give it a sense of place other than that of where it's grown, unless it's heavily manipulated in the cellar, in which case it doesn't have a sense of place at all but just a sense of heavy-handed authorship/sculpting...
This is obviously different from music and musicians' places of origin in ways I don't think I need to elaborate, but the way I understand it, footwork is (at this point) very much rooted (pun intended) in Chicago, so I don't see why it's wrong to be suspicious of the notion that it can be made elsewhere in lumped right on in with what's happening there. I think we would all agree that music nearly always has a sense of place (and time); it's hard to articulate, but we as sensitive listeners recognize it.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 1 September 2011 14:34 (twelve years ago) link
Also, I hate to be Mr. Hi-Fi Bore yet again, but how many ITT who aren't much impressed with, say, the Machinedrum record or the DJ Diamond record have only heard soundclips from the Planet Mu website, or YouTube videos, or other similarly fidelity-compromised outlets? I mean shit, this music gets so much of its energy and propulsion and vitality from BASS (I feel like Captain Obvious pointing that out)! It just sounds like skittery pitter-patter without that, and definitely not exciting... There are certain styles of music that I feel just cannot be properly evaluated on small systems.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 1 September 2011 14:42 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, juke is compared to grime a lot but juke sounds better on a big system, or makes better use of it at least - the bass is quite big and deep which might surprise some people and a lot of the tracks dont sound complete unless you hear the bass really. a lot of juke is actually based around the bass.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 14:46 (twelve years ago) link
and it has a lot of naked sub bass, not doubled with mid-range synths or anything
― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Thursday, 1 September 2011 14:52 (twelve years ago) link
It's like complaining about a big, brothy, aromatic soup being bland when you're drinking it out of a straw in a closed container.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:01 (twelve years ago) link
Lovin Chrissy Murderbot and Machinedrum so far - although I only bought these yesterday, so.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:09 (twelve years ago) link
How does the DJ Diamond record compare with the DJ Roc album, DJ Spinn and the Bangs & Works comp (these are the only proper footwork releases I have along with Man I Do It by DJ Spinn FTR), is it markedly different or a departure from that kind of thing??
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:11 (twelve years ago) link
diamonds album is the best 'artist' (or producer) album so far
bangs and works is the best prob but thats a comp so...
but in order id say its
diamond, roc, then nate (who i like some of, but who also sometimes sounds like he has little idea of what hes doing exactly). not included the two rashad albums just cos while theyre good they dont really feel substantial enough and i think rashad has better tracks not included on those two.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:22 (twelve years ago) link
if you like any/all of those I can't see you not liking it - he has most of the same tricks and weird production signifiers as Roc and Nate
I also have a CD of his from I think 2009 that DJ Slugo put out - afaict it's the only other DJ Diamond thing available to buy right now - it's like a 40-track mix, not as batshit rhythm-wise as the stuff on the artist album but still v densely edited/looped/whatever
― Amazing pic of the universe! - VERY NSFW (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:22 (twelve years ago) link
rashad has some other albums too from 2009 or so which are cool but i think mu would do a better job of putting an album out from him
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:24 (twelve years ago) link
I guess I find most proper footwork stuff "interesting" rather than something I could sit and enjoy outside of a dancing context. A lot of it's done in Fruityloops I understand, and you can tell. What it reminds me of mostly were the earliest tracks my friend and I used to make in the mid 90s using tracker modules - uncanny really, down to the pitched and sampled vocals and frantic beats. It's kind of a tacky, underproduced sound, but I'm waiting for someone to come along and polish it up - no doubt to major complaints from OG fans - which I guess is what Machinedrum's done recently.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:44 (twelve years ago) link
i wouldnt mind the polishing up, that would be good, but machine drum seems to do that within a totally diff context, one that seems to take out all the ruffness of juke and the hip hop attitude and energy etc. footwork right now seems to be in a kind of mid/late 80s rap phase. im waiting for its version of 90s hip hop come in, when it progresses a bit more and the producers get better. not sure if that will happen though as it doesnt seem like a genre thats really moving forward as such, it just is.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
It's kind of a tacky, underproduced sound,
this is a big part of the appeal to me. also a lot of the drums sound unquantized to me.
― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Thursday, 1 September 2011 15:59 (twelve years ago) link
I get the rap comparison, but I also hear a lot of parallels with gabba and nosebleed - a lot of ideas that have been abandoned since those days. Agreed - polish shouldn't be about smoothing things down - if someone were to progress the sound it'd need to retain, perhaps amp up, the adrenaline of the circle.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:01 (twelve years ago) link
not sure if that will happen though as it doesnt seem like a genre thats really moving forward as such, it just is.
Give it a break - Bangs and Works only came out less than a year ago, and already we're seeing external producers (Africa Hitech, Chrissy, Machinedrum, Sully) taking it on as key influence. Definitely see this going forwards - people adding vocals, bigger production. Only a matter of time till a footwork-inspired track gets in the charts I reckon.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:04 (twelve years ago) link
It's really hard for me to even think of the Machinedrum record as a footwork record. Obviously, I see the elements in it that prompt the comparisons (not to mention its context, record label, etc), but it feels totally different. I like it because it doesn't feel like he's being overly reverential/cautious and trying to make "real" footwork, but nor is it so "IDM-fied" that it feels completely abstracted. I don't get people calling it sterile; there's some real rush-y fiery stuff on it, and some moments of real emotional beauty ("Come1" in particular). I started a thread on it a little while ago, actually:
Machinedrum: Room(s)
― Clarke B., Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:05 (twelve years ago) link
the Dude Off 59th Street & Discovery mixes by RP Boo are some of the best footwork releases imo - still haven't heard anything as amazing as Freezaburn or Heavy Heat from anyone else making footwork.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:07 (twelve years ago) link
I wouldn't compare Machinedrum's stuff to the actual footwork music. Not worth getting bogged down in that argument. That's like comparing Squarepusher and Aphex to Goldie etc. It's footwork-inspired electronica and leave it at that.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:08 (twelve years ago) link
"Give it a break"
i love this stuff, but isnt it older than we think it is? cos yeah mu picking it up has alerted other producers to footwork, but as far as within the scene/city, i dont think its news anymore, its been going as is for a while now. dont think its on the wane or anything (im not close enough to know though), but i think maybe cos its so small, its hard to tell if there are new guys coming in who could progress it. then again the bangs and works comp seemed to have plenty of names on there so maybe theres more fresh blood than im thinking.
can we stop talking about that bloody machine drum record w/r/t footwork cos thats like including aphex or BOC in a convo about hip hop beats/production in the late 90s.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:12 (twelve years ago) link
Haha, sorry "Give it a break" wasn't meant in any aggressive way. But it's only just starting to break out of its own scene-based and largely functional form. The question is, will it do a dubstep - itself at first a very insular scene which went off-the-scale in commerciality over several years?
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:27 (twelve years ago) link
rp boo - discoveryrp boo - 2008
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:30 (twelve years ago) link
no way, it will never do a dubstep. this stuff, and i hate using this phrase cos its loaded, but i think footwork is prob too 'black' to really do a dubstep. dubstep went worldwide and mainstream cos its racially much more neutral. footwork is like grime, in this current climate, its just too hard and street to really crossover. and if i can be selfish, i dont think i want it to do a dubstep actually. if this was the mid 90s, it would have more chance to do a dubstep. or a jungle/drum n bass, rather (which is what its closer to sonically in some ways, though i know you werent talking about how it actually sounds, but jungle somehow managed to get mainstream plaudits/chart action despite being as hard as it was).
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:35 (twelve years ago) link
then again, if someone from UK BASS (ugh) could work some footwork into a poppy song, i dont see why it wouldnt enter the charts. but the chicago guys arent really finessed enough from what ive heard so far to do that on their own. but if benga or skream or someone did a footwork type banger it could prob do alright. im okay with that not happening for a while yet though.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:37 (twelve years ago) link
then again, if someone from UK BASS (ugh) could work some footwork into a poppy song,
This is what I mean - I don't think it's inconceivable at all. Chrissy's sound is already designed for full on party-styles. I mean, the OG dubstep was about 12 guys nodding under hoods in a pitch-black room, and look where that went.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:41 (twelve years ago) link
chrissys stuff is a bit silly though (as already noted upthread), its almost like meta party music, more about how its in love with party music than actually just BEING party music, if that makes sense. or maybe im creating false binaries. and iirc, the main party-hearty songs on chrissys album werent the footwork-y ones, they were the ones that were more like 90s mashups.
og dubstep like idk, horsepower is soft to me lol. i do love golden nugget, but all that dubby garage stuff was pretty boring. footwork is like grime, prob just too weird and hard and lo-fi for people to place right now. and rhythmically people are going to be confused by it. speaking of lo fi, the 1st song on flight muzik sounds like a really poor bit rate mp3!
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:46 (twelve years ago) link
although, if you told me in 2004 that dubstep would be massive, i prob wouldnt have believe you, so whos to say. but back then we all thought grime would blow, not dubstep lol.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:47 (twelve years ago) link
og dubstep like idk, horsepower is soft to me lol. i do love golden nugget, but all that dubby garage stuff was pretty boring.
We've agreed on this in the past IIRC. I remember being convinced there was no commercial worth in dubstep. There was no conceivable way that this slow, unfocused sound could ever reach the charts. But after several major transmutations, it did, and to cut a long story short I had to eat a hat.
Incidentally, titchy, where are you based?
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:54 (twelve years ago) link
im in london man, wbu?
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 16:59 (twelve years ago) link
"if someone were to progress the sound it'd need to retain, perhaps amp up, the adrenaline of the circle."
this is otm btw
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 17:05 (twelve years ago) link