participating in the market capitalism of the west seems easily the most destructive of them to my mind
wait what
― iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:56 (twelve years ago) link
I think China about thirty years from now will make the worst years under Mao look like a picnic
― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:57 (twelve years ago) link
there really isn't any way to make 30 million people starving to death look like a picnic
― iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:59 (twelve years ago) link
hold that thought man!
― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:00 (twelve years ago) link
a key component of a good picnic is making sure that everyone has food
― max, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:01 (twelve years ago) link
lol max u are on fire today
― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:02 (twelve years ago) link
arguably that is the #1 most important characteristic of a good picnic
― max, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:02 (twelve years ago) link
ants
― horseshoe, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:02 (twelve years ago) link
picanic baskets
― iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
China had several systems that didn't result in the destruction of China, they had various pluses and minuses; participating in the market capitalism of the west seems easily the most destructive of them to my mind, but I don't think western demand gets to shoulder all the blame for the fate of rural China
wait what? I'm as critical of deng xiaoping as anybody but this is just trolling
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:12 (twelve years ago) link
I do agree though that if china could get into a time machine and go back to mid-qing dynasty living, everybody would probably be better off
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:14 (twelve years ago) link
right but where are you going to make that time machine, shenzen?
― max, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:17 (twelve years ago) link
bespoke time machine handcrafted in brooklyn by artisans
― mh, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:18 (twelve years ago) link
dayo I'm not sure who you're arguing w/. I'd be in favor of heavy enough tariffs to stop China from ruining itself to provide worthless consumer goods to the west, but can you really put that ruin on the west?
heavy-tariffs to stop china from letting american businesses make things and sell things to americans is patronizing 'stop-hitting-yourself'-esque logic btw. otoh you can argue that china's currency manipulation is *bad for people in china*.
there isn't an easy answer for 'how do you lift a billion people out of poverty without fucking up the world'. you can blame the west for having fucked up consumption patterns and being way behind the curve when it comes to dealing w/ its own environmental issues and you can blame the chinese government for being very short-sighted when it comes to the real costs of pollution. but tariff wars aren't gonna help anybody in any sense, esp. since any long-term solutions require a lot of international coordination.
― iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:23 (twelve years ago) link
man dayo knows his dynasties, qing dynasty even tried to stop footbinding
― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:26 (twelve years ago) link
the qing dynasty was doing pretty well til the british showed up
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:28 (twelve years ago) link
the qing dynasty world was doing pretty well til the british showed up
― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:30 (twelve years ago) link
heavy-tariffs to stop china from letting american businesses make things and sell things to americans is patronizing 'stop-hitting-yourself'-esque logic btw.
in re: this, what if somebody is actually hitting himself
― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:31 (twelve years ago) link
as long as america is around countries are going to have lots of help w/r/t hitting themselves
― iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 21:31 (twelve years ago) link
isn't there already legislation re: pollutant-heavy manufacturing/processes and disposal of waste etc in the US?- ie the very type of attempt to force companies to pay environmental costs up-front that lamp suggests?
Cos I mean, presumably that's one of the major factors that makes it cheaper to manufacture abroad.
― blind pele (darraghmac), Sunday, 6 November 2011 23:57 (twelve years ago) link
and if you accept that the globalised economy makes it inevitable that developing economies will tend to take on the tasks that become problematic in eg US, are we going to start seeing fair-trade flatscreens?
― blind pele (darraghmac), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:01 (twelve years ago) link
selling for 4x the price of the regular flatscreen but made out of papaya or something
Or what's the suggestion?
― blind pele (darraghmac), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:04 (twelve years ago) link
there is more legislation here than china obv, tho generally not anywhere near the realm of 'factory x pays for all its environmental externalities'.
― iatee, Monday, 7 November 2011 00:05 (twelve years ago) link
china actually has pretty strict safety laws, its just that nobody follows them and the courts dont enforce anything
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:05 (twelve years ago) link
strict environmental laws
refreshing and healthy benzene
― whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:06 (twelve years ago) link
yeah tbf i hadn't ever assumed 'sufficient' legislation but that underlines the point, really- even with light regulation, the problem just goes elsewhere without solving anything in terms of global impact.
― blind pele (darraghmac), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:08 (twelve years ago) link
benzene rings, the lord of them all
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:08 (twelve years ago) link
when they fix things in china they'll just move all the factories to SE asia, when SE asia outlaws they'll just move the factories to the parts of africa that aren't war-torn
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:09 (twelve years ago) link
right, which means even if china one day got 100% on board, you still have other places willing to step up. xp
― iatee, Monday, 7 November 2011 00:10 (twelve years ago) link
xp yup
but hopefully the reptilians will reveal themselves by then and show us the path to salvation and to Betelgeuse V
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:10 (twelve years ago) link
exactly. Where to next, this place isn't shitty enough to be a viable cost centre anymore
Globalisation works
― blind pele (darraghmac), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:10 (twelve years ago) link
we basically need a world government willing to impose and enforce environmental taxes
― iatee, Monday, 7 November 2011 00:12 (twelve years ago) link
a rising tide will hopefully cover all plutonium dumps, kiu icecaps
― blind pele (darraghmac), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:12 (twelve years ago) link
xp lol
maybe after we get a world govt able to stop i dunno genocide, famine and the simon cowell, but cmon now
― blind pele (darraghmac), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:14 (twelve years ago) link
simon cowell is actually our best hope for creating and running a world government iirc
― iatee, Monday, 7 November 2011 00:15 (twelve years ago) link
cowell/michael o'leary/abramovich hot ticket in 2015
― blind pele (darraghmac), Monday, 7 November 2011 00:17 (twelve years ago) link
not badly priced, but the corncob pipe fits right into the "how much authenticity is too much?" discussion
http://absoluteclassicmasterpieces.us/shop
― spiced with KNOWING THAT YOU'VE PAID YOUR BILLS (I DIED), Monday, 14 November 2011 14:06 (twelve years ago) link
you don't usually see the words "leisure accessories" and "philadelphia, pennsylvania" in the same sentence.
― scott seward, Monday, 14 November 2011 14:10 (twelve years ago) link
it's nice that they are Felt fans though.
IIRC, the original corncob pipes were designed to be disposable.
And it's the concrete ashtray that really gets me.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Monday, 14 November 2011 14:29 (twelve years ago) link
Ditto.
― It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Monday, 14 November 2011 14:34 (twelve years ago) link
Those just, um, don't even look that well-crafted? Or at least not well-designed.
― pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 November 2011 15:03 (twelve years ago) link
a concrete ashtray doesn't seem very useful, it's heavy and hard to flip and you can't shake it without threat of getting carpal tunnel
― ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Monday, 14 November 2011 15:06 (twelve years ago) link
Concrete's actually a bit lighter than glass. But $150 for an ashtray is rough.
― spiced with KNOWING THAT YOU'VE PAID YOUR BILLS (I DIED), Monday, 14 November 2011 15:14 (twelve years ago) link
there was a nyt article about 20-somethings all becoming portland food truck vendors and the 'sell stuff' economy, but I can't find it now
― iatee, Monday, 14 November 2011 15:21 (twelve years ago) link
ah here
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/opinion/sunday/the-entrepreneurial-generation.html?pagewanted=all
― iatee, Monday, 14 November 2011 15:23 (twelve years ago) link
this is the guy who wrote "The Disadvantages of an Elite Education" which iirc was about how going to princeton (or whatever) made it too hard to talk to his plumber
― iatee, Monday, 14 November 2011 15:26 (twelve years ago) link